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11-06-2016 03:09 PM
Deb I took Enya to Lowes with us today. In the parking lot was a GSD barking from the open bed of a pickup truck. Since he was barking at everyone, it was nonstop barking. Enya looked once and then ignored him. Inside as we were leaving two small dogs walked past us as we stood in the check out line. They barked and lunged and were dragged away. I told her sit, she'd get up, I'd tell her sit, she would, then get back up. But not a bark or growl from her, merely curiosity and wanting to go see closer. As they passed the couple in line behind us loudly said 'It's nice this dog is so nicely trained'. Well, if you count a puppy sitting, standing, sitting, standing well behaved. *G* Had we not been standing in line, I would have moved away from them. The dogs waited until they were almost on her to act aggressively. So you don't know what another dog will do. It's not worth it to walk up to a strange dog thinking they 'look and act friendly'. Friendly can change in an instant.
11-06-2016 10:36 AM
lrodptl
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
and that is why I started this thread !

I am sure you were acting on your best intentions . You are not alone .

I don't know when this concept of socializing young pups, or dog parks was "sold" to the public .

It is so contrary to the nature and needs of the dog . Have we lost common sense , are so urban that we no longer understand an animal as an animal, have humanized them , pressured by some peta agenda that makes the person feel good ?

PLEASE, NEW PUP OWNERS, DO NOT DO THIS

Dogs do not need to be "socialized" to the contact of other dogs.

When I was a kid there weren't any puppy or doggie daycare, or commercial playtime sessions.
Certainly no dedicated facilities with two way mirrors or video feeds.

This is the worst . You weren't even there for your pup to look toward you for support or guidance.

I wonder if there was any successful customer.

a bit of passion here - not singling you out -- I honestly think you had the best of intentions.



.
Everything I've read says it is pertinent to get a puppy socialized by 4 months old. I complied with August and I don't believe he had any negative experiences at this doggy daycare. All the dogs there are vetted and all are dog friendly. Despite all his socialization and again I never saw anything negative,he is mistrustful of dogs. I think it might have been different if I had continued the socializing,but early socialization was not a magic cure.
11-06-2016 09:53 AM
MineAreWorkingline When I was growing up, there were no leash laws, doggie daycares, dog parks, etc.

It was common for people to own two or three dogs, all kept intact, all ran loose in the streets.

The dogs, even new puppies, all hung together with the kids, played with us, walked with us, and chased us on our bikes.

Dogs grew up being savvy in doggie social skills. Fights were rare, even when females were in heat and males followed in packs.

All of this ended with leash laws and helped create leash reactivity and a lack of doggie social skills. Most don't qualify these behaviors as good family pet material nor does it remind us of our childhood dogs from back then.

Perhaps this is where and why doggie daycares, dog parks, etc., have risen to popularity.

@carmspak What was it like with dogs when you were growing up? What did families and children do to enjoy them?
11-06-2016 09:38 AM
telavivgsd
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
and that is why I started this thread !


I don't know when this concept of socializing young pups, or dog parks was "sold" to the public .

It is so contrary to the nature and needs of the dog . Have we lost common sense , are so urban that we no longer understand an animal as an animal, have humanized them , pressured by some peta agenda that makes the person feel good ?

PLEASE, NEW PUP OWNERS, DO NOT DO THIS

Dogs do not need to be "socialized" to the contact of other dogs.




.
It's so so hard not to get stuck in this mindset today though. Klaus was fearful of most other dogs right off the bat, and everyone around me, in puppy training groups, etc. was pushing the whole "expose him to more dogs, make him play with them" thing. It feels so urgent, because everyone stresses that there's a limited window for this, and if you miss it, your dog will turn out to be some dog hating monster. Luckily I found this thread and people here, and instead we just gave other dogs a wide berth as much as possible and let him grow up a bit.

He now has almost no reaction to most dogs we pass, or he wants to play - the polar opposite of how he was. He's still improving, and he'll never be a "dog friendly" dog, but he doesn't need to be. When he does still have his occasional fearful reaction (interestingly usually towards really small dogs), people sometimes tell me, oh, he should have played with more dogs when he was younger.
11-06-2016 08:48 AM
carmspack
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrodptl View Post
I socialized August constantly from 10 weeks old. He'd do 4 hours 3 times a week til he was 8 months at a doggy daycare where I could watch him via video feed. I supplemented that with Petco and Petsmart puppy playtimes twice a week. August is now 3 years old and is not good with other dogs. I stopped the daycare because of the neutering requirement and my older GSD is not dog friendly so that's what I have now,2 GSDs,one temperamentally fearful and reactive to other dogs (attacking and attempting to bite other dogs aggressively since 8 weeks old) and the other lacks the benefits of continued dog socialization. They do have 1 other dog buddy they've known since they were pups who they love,so I know they are capable.
and that is why I started this thread !

I am sure you were acting on your best intentions . You are not alone .

I don't know when this concept of socializing young pups, or dog parks was "sold" to the public .

It is so contrary to the nature and needs of the dog . Have we lost common sense , are so urban that we no longer understand an animal as an animal, have humanized them , pressured by some peta agenda that makes the person feel good ?

PLEASE, NEW PUP OWNERS, DO NOT DO THIS

Dogs do not need to be "socialized" to the contact of other dogs.

When I was a kid there weren't any puppy or doggie daycare, or commercial playtime sessions.
Certainly no dedicated facilities with two way mirrors or video feeds.

This is the worst . You weren't even there for your pup to look toward you for support or guidance.

I wonder if there was any successful customer.

a bit of passion here - not singling you out -- I honestly think you had the best of intentions.



.
11-06-2016 07:58 AM
lrodptl I socialized August constantly from 10 weeks old. He'd do 4 hours 3 times a week til he was 8 months at a doggy daycare where I could watch him via video feed. I supplemented that with Petco and Petsmart puppy playtimes twice a week. August is now 3 years old and is not good with other dogs. I stopped the daycare because of the neutering requirement and my older GSD is not dog friendly so that's what I have now,2 GSDs,one temperamentally fearful and reactive to other dogs (attacking and attempting to bite other dogs aggressively since 8 weeks old) and the other lacks the benefits of continued dog socialization. They do have 1 other dog buddy they've known since they were pups who they love,so I know they are capable.
11-06-2016 12:08 AM
carmspack
Quote:
Originally Posted by Way Too Quiet View Post
I have to say that I was very concerned about our GSD's temperment after bringing him home at 8 wks. He seemed too shy and a bit nervy. Bringing him out to a park seemed too much for him and he would mostly bark and acted like a wild animal in public. And he had had come from a great breeder who exposed the litter to noises and people/kids, etc. Consistent training at home and plenty of car rides within the comfort of his crate have paid off. My husband and I took him out this weekend to a very busy downtown area and farmer's market and he was really good! He's 6 months old now and I will be bringing him out much more now that he can handle it. I think if I would have pushed him with too much when he was younger it wouldn't have turned out so well. I questioned myself a lot during the last 4 months though. Everyone says, socialize, socialize, socialize. I think you can only do what your pup is ready for.
how is your pup doing?
11-05-2016 10:09 PM
Deb
Quote:
Originally Posted by selzer View Post
Sometimes I take a youngster to puppy classes, but I ensure there will be no free-for-all. Other than that, I really don't go out of my way to expose puppies to other dogs early on. I think it is counter-productive.

I do the same. I have Enya starting class next week, she'll be 4 months old. She'll see the dogs, but not play with them. While I've taken her with me to stores here and there, I've avoided other dogs other than the ones here.
11-05-2016 09:28 PM
selzer Sometimes I take a youngster to puppy classes, but I ensure there will be no free-for-all. Other than that, I really don't go out of my way to expose puppies to other dogs early on. I think it is counter-productive.
11-05-2016 03:41 PM
carmspack inspired by http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...ml#post8176410

There is a published study offered in the Journal of Veterinary Behaviour - clinical applications and research
which is titled Analysis of correlations between early social exposure and reported aggression in the dog

Briefly , data gathered from close to 800 Australian participants who had dogs within an age range of one to three years,
acquired at the ages of 10 weeks or younger , not breed or gender specific.
The questionnaire asked them about their experience -- at what age did they take the dog to public places whether parks or sidewalks .
They asked how many encounters did that young pup have with unfamiliar dogs and how much time was spent making encounters per week.
They were asked whether they restricted their pup's exposure based on how THEIR dog reacted . (fear or aggression)
Finally they were asked whether their dog had displayed aggression.

The average age for this socialization was approximately 13 weeks of age. - 51% responded that they "socialized" before the timeline of the final booster vaccination.
I said the timeline , the average age when the standard vaccination protocol is typically completed because not every one adheres to it . With some the vaccinations (if any) are completed in a staggered , longer time period .

Of this group 34 % reported having experienced their dog reacting aggressively toward an unfamiliar dog.


The findings were that when an owner waited longer to begin public social exposure the chances of their dog becoming an adult with aggression towards other dogs was reduced .

**** quote **** "that every week that an owner waited to begin public social exposure reduced the odds of their dog becoming aggressive to other dogs as an adult by 4.2%"

Spending more time with unfamiliar dogs , or spending time with more unfamiliar dogs in public areas made no positive change to the likelihood that the dog would not be aggressive (dog to dog) . In fact the negative experiences predisposed them to later aggression.
Early exposure to a range of public exposure

Not doing any good in the long run.

I know that people like to get the young pups out there . They are fantastic ice breakers - bring friendly attention -- dog doesn't care . Rewarding and lovely for the person . Who doesn't love a cute pup ?

this was not covered in the study (to my knowledge) - I would add exposure to other dogs in structured puppy classes --

Do what is right for the dog.
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