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Thread: Potty Training without discipline? Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
02-20-2014 09:18 AM
nikon22shooter Its kind of like beating a dead horse, people still do it
02-20-2014 01:43 AM
IllinoisNative
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansa's Mom View Post
I don't think it really is off-base, a lot of all-positive training can be permissive.
Not swatting a dog is not being "all positive." Nor is it the same as permissive.

Quote:
Also- I am not talking about losing control and going ballistic and beating the crap out of a dog. I am talking about a loud "NO" and swat on the butt.
Let's call it what it is. It's hitting a dog while couching it in terms of "swatting." If it's just a swat, doesn't really hurt, and is really that harmless, why do it at all? IMO, hitting a dog teaches them to not trust the hand. And that's pretty big deal when you need to handle them...touch their ears, paws, mouth, etc. Get the wrong dog on the wrong day and it's an accident waiting to happen. Especially with a dog that can do the kind of damage a German Shepherd can do. Why set the dog up for failure?

Not to mention, it's completely unnecessary (and counter-productive) to "swat" for housebreaking. Show me someone who has to "swat" their dog to get compliance for housebreaking and I'll show you someone who lacks the knowledge to train their dog.

I've never had to swat a dog to housebreak them...and I've had Siberian Huskies, Chows, German Shepherds, Goldens, etc. I've also fostered many dogs who were older and not house-trained....Rotties, Pits, mixes. Not a swat to be had. And it's not like some of these dogs weren't untrained, difficult or hard. It takes patience, consistency, and clear communication of what you want.

I always liked the saying, "If you see that your dog had an accident in the house, find a newspaper, roll it up, and hit yourself over the head." The mistake is yours...not the dog's.
02-17-2014 06:36 PM
David Winners
Quote:
Originally Posted by doggiedad View Post
what behaviour do you "snap up a pup by the scruff"? do think
a pup knows the difference in tearing up your $500.00 loafers
or a news paper?
I wouldn't scruff a pup for chewing anything but skin. If a pup chews something up it's not allowed to chew, it's my fault. If a pup bites me hard repeatedly I will pick it up by the scruff.

Bite inhibition is another thread though.

David Winners
02-17-2014 06:29 PM
doggiedad what behaviour do you "snap up a pup by the scruff"? do think
a pup knows the difference in tearing up your $500.00 loafers
or a news paper?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Winners View Post
Something I don't understand is the reason people believe the puppy fails. Do they think the puppy is pooping out of spite or something? If the reward is consistently present at poop time, do they think the puppy is too lazy to walk to the door?

I do not specify a number of repetitions necessary for a dog to learn a behavior. Different dogs have different learning capacities. Different things can influence what the dog associates with reward or punishment.

Here's how I do it. 15 minutes after poop/pee inducing activities, I go hang out by the door with the puppy and play. As soon as the dog sniffs the ground, indicating potty time, I make a huge party at the door. I open the door and head out with the dog on its own legs (if possible) and keep myself interesting all the way to the potty spot. I mark and reward at the door, at the potty spot, and after the deal is done.

I (hopefully) just built the foundation for the chain of behaviors cued by the need to poop. As with all new behaviors, I lure the dog to do the right thing himself, instead of doing it for them. I set up conditions for them to succeed and for me to reward each step of the process.

There is a fundamental difference in extinguishing a behavior through punishment or replacement. Whenever possible, I chose replacement.

>>>>> I'm not some pansy trainer that can't stand the thought of corrections. I'll snap up a puppy by the scruff for certain things. <<<<<


Failing to understand where to eliminate is not one of them.


David Winners
02-17-2014 06:26 PM
David Winners
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon22shooter View Post

So before you think I'm a puppy beating scary person, I'm not. I just think some people are too soft when it comes to training and they are too worried about hurting someones feelings. Definitely not how I was raised.

Sorry for being thicked skin and old fashion.
I understand where your thought process comes from. I am a disciplinarian at heart. I'm a Sergeant in combat arms. I get it

I don't think you are beating your puppy. I also don't think you are giving the puppy time to learn the behavior you want. Teaching a puppy to sit on command takes way more than 10 reps, and that is a simple behavior.

Going to the door, alerting, walking outside to a location and then pooping is pretty complex for a pup to understand. You see a correction may teach the pup not to go, but it has to connect all those dots in its head.

It's going to go whether it knows it's wrong or not. It doesn't have a choice.

Consider this. You are left handed. You decide to visit a country in the middle east by yourself. You get off the plane and someone greets you, and you extend your left hand in greeting to shake their hand. They slap you and say some harsh words you don't understand.

20 minutes later, someone else greets you in a restaurant and extends their right hand to you in offer of a handshake. You subconsciously reciprocate with your right hand because you are conditioned to do so out of habit. All goes well.

20 minutes later, you meet another friendly person and extend your left hand in greeting and you get slapped and reprimanded again.

You may connect the dots. It may take a few more reps. Would it be more fair if someone could explain that they wipe their butts with their left hand, and offering it in greeting is an insult? They told you the first time, but you didn't understand. You have a big mature brain and higher learning power and you still may not understand.

Give the pup a chance.


David Winners
02-17-2014 06:23 PM
doggiedad i did the same thing. i did raise my voice a little. my pup was
house broken in 11 days. i continued to take him out often.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trcy View Post
I didn't really discipline If I caught him in the act I would say "no, no...you potty outside." Then take him out to the potty place.
02-17-2014 06:15 PM
Cassidy's Mom
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Winners View Post
I'm not some pansy trainer that can't stand the thought of corrections. I'll snap up a puppy by the scruff for certain things. Failing to understand where to eliminate is not one of them.


David Winners
I agree with the first part too, about why a puppy would poop in the house deliberately, if they truly did understand they weren't supposed to. Dogs do what works to get what they want, and what could a puppy possibly gain by doing that???
02-17-2014 06:08 PM
David Winners Something I don't understand is the reason people believe the puppy fails. Do they think the puppy is pooping out of spite or something? If the reward is consistently present at poop time, do they think the puppy is too lazy to walk to the door?

I do not specify a number of repetitions necessary for a dog to learn a behavior. Different dogs have different learning capacities. Different things can influence what the dog associates with reward or punishment.

Here's how I do it. 15 minutes after poop/pee inducing activities, I go hang out by the door with the puppy and play. As soon as the dog sniffs the ground, indicating potty time, I make a huge party at the door. I open the door and head out with the dog on its own legs (if possible) and keep myself interesting all the way to the potty spot. I mark and reward at the door, at the potty spot, and after the deal is done.

I (hopefully) just built the foundation for the chain of behaviors cued by the need to poop. As with all new behaviors, I lure the dog to do the right thing himself, instead of doing it for them. I set up conditions for them to succeed and for me to reward each step of the process.

There is a fundamental difference in extinguishing a behavior through punishment or replacement. Whenever possible, I chose replacement.

I'm not some pansy trainer that can't stand the thought of corrections. I'll snap up a puppy by the scruff for certain things. Failing to understand where to eliminate is not one of them.


David Winners
02-17-2014 06:07 PM
Cassidy's Mom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassidy's Mom View Post
You realize this thread is about potty training a puppy, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon22shooter View Post
Does it matter? Training is training.
Yes, it does. If you want to have a philosophical discussion about using corrections in dog training, that's fine. Feel free to start a new thread on that topic. THIS thread is about housing breaking a puppy. Most people these days realize that using corrections, such as smacking the puppy, is not advisable under these circumstances, and it's in that context that people are answering the question. What you'd do in some other circumstance is beside the point.
02-17-2014 06:02 PM
nikon22shooter Good to hear
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