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Thread: Help School Me About Working Lines (moved to bloodlines and pedigrees) Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
01-21-2014 06:17 PM
wolfstraum
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexg View Post
But can anyone predict how much of the Fero's quality is present in a given litter a few generations down the line? ... or in the given puppy from that litter?
IMO - it depends on what Fero dogs are in the litter and how many of them!!! I am careful through what dogs he comes, and really try to avoid alot of Fero....or really alot of any <point dog> ....many people will tell me about their dog/litter and say - in a proud tone - that they are linebred....but when you ask why this is important, what the linebreeding is going to hopefully bring to the dog/litter - they draw a blank!

Lee
01-21-2014 05:28 PM
alexg
Quote:
Originally Posted by John C. View Post
...
So if Fero and his progeny repeatedly show up in a pedigree, and Fero is known to produce a certain quality, presumably that quality is important to the breeder, and will be expressed in his dogs.
...
But can anyone predict how much of the Fero's quality is present in a given litter a few generations down the line? ... or in the given puppy from that litter?
01-21-2014 05:07 PM
John C. Once again thank you everyone - such good comments. I will definitely follow up with PM's to the two individual members if that's ok with them.

Also, Wolfstraum articulated better than I did where I'm coming from. There seem to be certain dogs and certain lines that supposedly impart certain characteristics to their progeny. I would assume those characteristics can be further enhanced by line breeding (I think that is the correct term) or if a certain "point dog" shows up multiple times in a pedigree. Hopefully, this will give me some idea (independent of the breeder) what qualities will predominate in a particular litter. It also may give me a better idea of the breeder's goals and what qualities he is trying to produce in his dogs.

So if Fero and his progeny repeatedly show up in a pedigree, and Fero is known to produce a certain quality, presumably that quality is important to the breeder, and will be expressed in his dogs.

I think this information would be helpful to me in differentiating between different breeders of working dogs because I have a pretty good idea of the qualities I'm looking for. For example, I don't plan on resuming Schutzhund training, nor am I particularly concerned about a dog's ability to stand up to a forceful helper or to protect me from a dangerous intruder. Knowing this I don't necessarily think I need a dog with strong defensive drives.

Similarly, I have seen dogs who are extremely dominant and who require owners willing and able to constantly keep their thumb on the dog to keep this dominance in check. That dog would probably not be a good match for me and would do better with a different owner.

On the other hand, my prior dog had a ton of prey drive and a very big desire to please me. This made training sessions a joy. We both LOVED doing obedience training together and I was able to get great results while keeping it a game. I would love to duplicate this in my next dog.

The one bad thing about my dog is that he had low defensive thresholds and was a little nervy. This is something I would love to change in my next dog, so I would definitely want a breeder that emphasized stability and a rock solid temperment.

Finally, although I'm trying to be pretty specific, since I think it is ultimately helpful to have an idea of what your looking for, I realize that buying a puppy is not like buying a car. You can't simply choose a particular model and then specify exactly the color, trim and options you want. Particularly with puppies, you might not understand exactly what you've got for 1 or 2 years. But then, that's part of the fun.
01-21-2014 01:37 PM
JakodaCD OA and LEE above is a another good one to speak to about a referral!

I think getting a referral from a breeder who knows their stuff as the two I"ve listed do, is a big help in finding what your looking for..Or can I say I would have no problem getting a dog from either Cliff or lee
01-21-2014 01:29 PM
wolfstraum Sires become popular because they either produce a BIG winner or three - or are known to consistently pass on some characteristic....this is called prepotency. Looking at pedigrees, there are dogs consistently used who had some characteristic and have shown to be prepotent in passing that on. For lack of a descriptive label, I am going to call him the <point dog> as future generations will point back to him....There are often more than one <point dog> in any given pedigree - usually there are 2 or even 3. That is when you start thinking about "nicks".....I come from an equine background in pedigree studies, and use the same terminology and analytical reasoning.

Like in horses, once there is a large number of progeny, those progeny get bred, thus carrying down the genetics...this is when you see prepotancy come into play...when it is coming down 2 and 3 generations from the <point dog>. When this <point dog> end up widespread, he ends up in the pedigree 4, 6 , 8 maybe 10 times in the 6th through 10th generations....thus you have a VERY good chance of picking up genetic characteristics that are attributed to the <point dog>. New <point dogs> crop up...but I look behind them for nicks that made them become what they are.

Lee
01-21-2014 01:13 PM
martemchik I think you need to avoid the thought that seeing a certain dog in the pedigree means you're going to get a certain trait out of your pup. There are hundreds of dogs that produce high prey, hundreds that produce high hunt, and hundreds that produce all the other things that people look for in a dog. Canine DNA is so malleable that I find it very hard to believe dogs from the 6th generation or farther back have really had that much of an affect on the pup in question. I think they've had an affect on the 4th and 5th generation, but after that, it's more about the breeding decision in regards to those dogs and what they bring to the table to produce a solid next generation and so on.

More focus needs to be on the 2nd or 3rd generation, which in today's world can be pretty difficult to get information on because we are so segregated and it's not like you're going to find dozens of people that have seen dog X train and trial. There aren't too many dogs that are currently being bred that are probably going to be in the same group as the feros of our breed. The world is way larger today and the breed has become much more regionalized.
01-21-2014 01:00 PM
martemchik Talking to a breeder is good, but make sure they prove that their dogs are capable of doing what they claim. So working titles or being an actual working dog if you are interested in SAR. As far as SAR goes I know there are dogs out there known for their hunt drive and producing high hunt drive dogs.

All breeders believe in their dogs. But it's one thing to say, my dog can do schutzhund but I just don't do it, and another thing to actually do it and show that the dog is capable.

If you PM the possible pedigree to some of the pedigree experts, they'll be able to back up the breeder's claims or let you know something more about the dogs in the pedigree. But always remember that just because a dog in the pedigree was known for something, doesn't mean they passed it on to their offspring or the particular offspring used in the next generation.

I think the best thing you can do is look for a breeder that is breeding the dogs for themselves in order to succeed in the venue you're looking at. That kind of tells you that they are aiming for success with the dogs and believe that what they're doing is right because they want a dog that can do the work. Of course a history of success in that venue is also very important, but a breeder that holds back dogs in order to work them in that venue says that they stand behind their dogs working ability.
01-21-2014 10:12 AM
JakodaCD OA John, I would pm Cliff above, tell him what your looking for and I'm sure he could recommend a breeder..Cliff is my "go to" person when I'm looking for pedigree information
01-21-2014 08:49 AM
John C. Wow, great comments from everyone, thanks. To give you a little more info. about my background, I've owned dogs all my life and 3 GSD. One when I was a child and two as an adult.

My last dog passed away a couple of months ago at age 12 and was a fantastic dog with a really interesting mix of drives - but who also had some issues.

As far as my experience as a trainer - guess I know enough to realize how little I know. I trained in Schutzhund for about a year and a half with my last GSD and got a BH. We were working toward a Schutzhund 1 when my club kind of imploded and I became disillusioned with some of the political infighting and personality clashes that developed between some of our members. But I do think I learned a lot from our training director and some of our members, who were very experienced and knowledgeable about dogs in general and schutzhund in particular. Our club also had a number of K9 officers, so I got to see a wide variety of dogs with varying abilities and temperments.

As a result I do have a pretty clear idea of what I'm looking for in my next dog and think I will be able to articulate it pretty clearly to a breeder.

I also know what I want to do with the dog - no schutzhund this time, but a lot of obedience and possible SAR.

My concern is that even hobby breeders want to find good homes for their dogs and are proud of their breedings. I'm concerned about going to two different breeders, whose dogs possess very different qualities and being told by both breeders that of course my dogs would work for you.

At the same time, I recognize that there has to be some level of trust between me and the breeder, particularly since even within a specific litter the pups are likely to possess a wide range of temperments and to some extent I will rely on the breeder to match me up with the best puppy.
01-21-2014 07:41 AM
cliffson1 John, I know a lot of people who have gotten super dogs by trusting the judgement of some of the pedigree/training people, far more successful approach than a novice going to a breeder and assessing what they don't know.
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