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  Topic Review (Newest First)
01-19-2014 01:56 PM
Blanketback I wouldn't be torn, I'd be furious. Especially since you want to work on how your pup interacts with strangers in your home. I don't think I can explain it any better than crackem just did. What more is there to say?

I don't understand defending the trainer's actions with a "you had to be there" in the least. The pup had issues with strangers before this even happened, now what? Is the trainer going to suggest a board and train and beat the pup into submission next time? Ok, I'm getting a little dramatic here, but seriously - what could possibly have been the point?
01-19-2014 11:35 AM
crackem Generally I agree, which is why I rarely ever give training advice or comment on it over the internet. But a dog that immediately goes into aggression because it perceives threat when a person walks into a room is anything but a stable dog. If that scenario alone wasn't enough to tell the trainer that, then maybe the year+ long history of that behavior should have been the other clue.

There is NOTHING in that situation that tells me, oh gee, let's go get a sleeve and see if it will bite for real. It's not a good idea, it's bull****. There is absolutely nothing positive to be gained from that encounter.

At best it can show you that your dog might bite if it is scared. Gee, thanks for the freaking news flash. A trainer worth a crap could have seen that from the start. He gained nothing.

At worst, the dog now learned it can shut off pressure by biting. Great work

I figure after a person has worked that long and is having issues and still comes to me, it's because they value my knowledge and opinion. It does nobody any good to push the dog that far and say, "see, your dog might really bite so this is important"

2 seconds after he walked in the room and got that reaction his response should have been to "put your dog away and let's talk", not go get a sleeve so he "could see what might happen". Dangerous and stupid.
01-19-2014 08:45 AM
David Winners Honestly, without seeing the dog and the way the trainer was operating, there's no way to know what was really going on.

If you are uncomfortable with the trainer, go somewhere else.
01-19-2014 08:16 AM
Baillif It isn't really that important. If I was doing a consult I'd never bring a sleeve it isn't necessary. The point of it may have been more for the OP to realize where the behavior could go unchecked. The point is you guys have made a link between the sleeve bite and confidence building that I don't think exists. Maybe he's good maybe he's crap I don't know. from that situation alone you can't just drop of the hat evaluate the value of his program.
01-19-2014 02:20 AM
Originally Posted by Baillif View Post
You guys are misunderstanding what was happening. The trainer pushing the dog to bite threshold was to see where the threshold was for his own knowledge and probably to see how big a threat that dog was to people. It was not an excercise to build confidence. That we need to build confidence comment was directed at how to fix the behavior long term.
Can you explain to me the point of pushing a dog further when they've already backed off scared and shaking at the sight of a sleeve? Any dog displaying that kind of body language may bite, why is it important to actually make them bite?
01-19-2014 12:28 AM
Sasha86 Yes this experience really frightened me. He won't be her trainer, she was pretty uncomfortable about the environment. It seemed like the program excels very well with Malinois and bully breeds. He won't be the trainer, so I don't know how much that will make a difference. Please check them out and tell me what you think. Attachment 167833
Calik9 from San Jose ca
Maybe you guys can review and tell me what you think
I wanted to do some hard trainer because she is still a teen who often does what she wants. My only aggression problem to begin with was in my house towards strgers, I didn't trust her. She is the sweetest dog. The positive training I have done only work with treats and they have helped with her reactivity. He said that with private classes that increase our bond and being pack leaders will help with her confidence building. I am torn

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01-18-2014 11:54 PM
howlk9 You shouldn't be embarrassed. Your dog needs to build its confidence and you don't do that by immediately putting her in a spot where she feels threatened. That doesn't make you look like a pack leader, you look like you're unable to protect her in this situation. This wasn't a training session, it was intimidation. Another idiot out there wrecking dogs and taking money to do it from what it sounds like to me.
I don't know what work you've done, but look at it like a building block. You need to go slow and help her get mentally stronger. Boomer11 may be right and she may never be a very confident dog, but that doesn't mean she can't be a good dog for you.
01-18-2014 11:50 PM
Baillif You guys are misunderstanding what was happening. The trainer pushing the dog to bite threshold was to see where the threshold was for his own knowledge and probably to see how big a threat that dog was to people. It was not an excercise to build confidence. That we need to build confidence comment was directed at how to fix the behavior long term.
01-18-2014 11:33 PM
Originally Posted by Sasha86 View Post
Well he said he put the sleeve on to see if she would make any contact. He said we need to build up her confidence and make her look at us like pack leaders. It was weird because she has never been this reactive towards anyone. If she doesn't like some one on a walk, she barks but we keep our distance or they walk away. I never thought she was this bad. And makes me feel disappointed because all of the work I have done has not worked.

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Confidence is built by her being successful in each encounter no matter how far away it has to be, not setting her up to fail as this guy did to her.

As far as all the work you have done not working - where would she be if you had not done the work? Fearful dogs are just that - fearful. You can train them to have different responses, but the underlying fear is there. You have to be prepared to manage and work her through the encounters she has problems with.
01-18-2014 11:01 PM
crackem there is ZERO need to push a dog that is already fear avoiding to the point it will bite just to see if it will engage and "build confidence" It's disaster waiting to happen.

Dogs with confidence are taught bitework. Dogs that are fearful, and from your description I don't have much doubt your dog has weak nerves and is very fearful, should absolutely NOT be taught to bite.

Think about it. IF a dog is scared, they bark to get you to move away and when you don't, they try to get away. Ie, your dog backing off scared and shaking. Then some "brilliant" trainer decides to push further with a sleeve to get them to bite. You didn't build confidence, he's teaching your dog that when it feels scared it can turn off whatever is scaring it by biting whereas now your dog puts up a front then hides when it's too much. Much safer for people and the dog.

Some dogs need to be managed, they need to managed their entire lives and all the expensive trainers in the world aren't going to give strength to nerves that aren't there. You can socialize, make comfortable in some situations, but YOU always have to be aware of minor changes that will immediately take your dog out of its comfort zone.

Any dog that is lunging and jumping and has unwarranted aggression to non threatening people is a dog that needs to be managed and socialized heavily with constant supervision from their owners. Absolutely NOT a dog you push to the point of biting so it can learn to turn off pressure or deal with stressful situations by biting. Great deal huh? These trainers aren't near as good as they've led you to believe. Save your money.
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