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Thread: E Collars. Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
01-11-2014 08:22 AM
MadLab
Quote:
You can get the same thing with a prong a leash and some negative reinforcement. Can have someone stand behind them doing it too provided they know what they are doing. You get the added benefit then of being able to keep the dog from cheating forward if you are doing a sport where you give a crap about that kind of thing. Depending on the angle you give the reinforcement you can send very clear messages to the dog as to what position he is supposed to be in too.
The stick and e collar works differently.

Say for a heel command. Hold the stick on front of the dog. If he touches it he gets a hit of the e collar. Dog understands to stay behind the stick. So when you turn the stick moves as well and the dog avoids contact with the stick so to avoid the shock from the stick.

This turning can't really be accomplished with another person behind delivering the prong correction.

Or the dog moving into heel position. Again a helper must be running around the dog with the prong lead to actually deliver a correction if the dog isn't getting into correct position. It is not really practical to do it.

It is the beauty of a e collar really. A very versatile tool.


BB is creating a channel for the dog to go into where there is no shock. Outside this channel the dog gets shocked. I can't see how this can be achieved in such a clean way with prong correction and neg reinforcement, although that technique can do a similar job but in a rougher manner.
01-11-2014 07:15 AM
Baillif
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Winners View Post
I think Ivan and Bart have both shown that you can increase speed and accuracy with the e-collar. I'm going to order it today. I'm in the field, so I won't get it until I get back in a couple weeks. I'm excited about watching it though. Thanks for the info.

David Winners
You can get the same thing with a prong a leash and some negative reinforcement. Can have someone stand behind them doing it too provided they know what they are doing. You get the added benefit then of being able to keep the dog from cheating forward if you are doing a sport where you give a crap about that kind of thing. Depending on the angle you give the reinforcement you can send very clear messages to the dog as to what position he is supposed to be in too.
01-11-2014 02:11 AM
Colie CVT Personally I feel that if you want success in anything that you do, you have to be experienced and educated. Never one or the other. You may start one more with one of those situations, but the other is something required to balance it out. We never know everything and when someone comes along that can do something better than you can with a different method, it may be wise to learn something from that.

I mostly post because of someone saying that experience matters more in the realm of techs and assistants. It helps, but you need to know the WHY not just the HOW. Which I feel applies to dog training too. You can know reasons for or against different tools, but why they work and do not work based upon the dog and the manner in which they are used is not always just an experience thing. We read up methods, go to seminars, etc all for one purpose. TO LEARN.

I don't have much experience with e-collars (and honestly every time i see it normally I think of plastic lampshades :P ) however I am not going to bash someone for using it. I know they have their place. I just hope if anyone is going to use any tool with their pet, they seek help from someone who knows how to use it properly and learn all they can to succeed.

After all, knowledge is power.
01-10-2014 08:29 PM
David Winners
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg1 View Post
Yes I agree, I also love how Bellon pairs the collar with the sticks. If it was me Id buy Ellis first E Collar Vid and then progress from there with Bellon or Balbanov. I wish BB would do more movies.
Me too. It's not like he's doing seminars in Korea LOL. The sticks are cool. My mom used sticks in competition obedience training decades ago to straighten up positions. I have never tried them personally though.

David Winners
01-10-2014 08:05 PM
Blitzkrieg1 Yes I agree, I also love how Bellon pairs the collar with the sticks. If it was me Id buy Ellis first E Collar Vid and then progress from there with Bellon or Balbanov. I wish BB would do more movies.
01-10-2014 05:42 PM
David Winners
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg1 View Post
Just finished it, not really trial oriented. It covers protection and obedience while the helper is on the field. He is very careful about using it in more advanced evolutions. I like MEs vids for starting a dog. However I think if you want to use the Collar in advanced OB and protection Bart Bellon has the best methods. ME doesnt believe the collar should be used to bring speed or improve body positioning as he doesnt believe the dog fully understands the collar in these applications.
I think Ivan and Bart have both shown that you can increase speed and accuracy with the e-collar. I'm going to order it today. I'm in the field, so I won't get it until I get back in a couple weeks. I'm excited about watching it though. Thanks for the info.

David Winners
01-10-2014 04:52 PM
Blitzkrieg1
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Winners View Post
Is volume 2 mostly finishing the dog for trial? It's on my Amazon wish list, just haven't ordered it yet.

David Winners
Just finished it, not really trial oriented. It covers protection and obedience while the helper is on the field. He is very careful about using it in more advanced evolutions. I like MEs vids for starting a dog. However I think if you want to use the Collar in advanced OB and protection Bart Bellon has the best methods. ME doesnt believe the collar should be used to bring speed or improve body positioning as he doesnt believe the dog fully understands the collar in these applications.
01-10-2014 08:42 AM
onyx'girl
Quote:
Originally Posted by jocoyn View Post
Kind of why I wondered if I should reply. Franchised training method so you don't even know if what you saw is consistent with the way the program is designed because they are not allowed to "talk about it" or no descriptions about how their approach is intended to work. In any event, the dog was very compliant but I did not see that oomph, that joy, which could also just be the dog. One thing I like about Lou is it is all there on his page but I realize you still do best with an experienced trainer picking up on the nuances of your dog's response/body language and helping guide you.
My friend that I trained with used a few of the SMS methods. She learned them from her friend who she trained with all the time that went thru the program. Because of the methods, the dogs they trained on the SMS program did lack enthusiasm and 'oomph' like you also observed.
They've since changed up the way they work the dogs. My friends field retriever lacked enthusiasm and effort when I started training with them. The dog is now happy to train, my friend has been working with Bridget Carlson consistently....what a difference in the dog! Part of that growth was because my friend was strictly compulsion based in her training. When I started training w/ her she saw how we build drive, and cap it. It opened up a new world for her.

I was never a fan of SMS, and I still am the one that controls my dogs training program. There were things I didn't feel necessary that were suggested, other things were great, and helpful.
01-10-2014 05:49 AM
jocoyn
Quote:
Originally Posted by onyx'girl View Post
I automatically thought of BB's results(He probably doesn't use an ecollor, just the dowel?)...I've used some SMS methods while conditioning my dog to the ecollar. Thankfully he didn't show any robotic behaviors.
Kind of why I wondered if I should reply. Franchised training method so you don't even know if what you saw is consistent with the way the program is designed because they are not allowed to "talk about it" or no descriptions about how their approach is intended to work. In any event, the dog was very compliant but I did not see that oomph, that joy, which could also just be the dog. One thing I like about Lou is it is all there on his page but I realize you still do best with an experienced trainer picking up on the nuances of your dog's response/body language and helping guide you.
01-10-2014 04:55 AM
OriginalWacky Goodness, I can't help but giggle at this, but also hope that the OP takes the time to settle down and realize there are a lot of really awesome dog handlers here and there is much to be learned from many of them. I certainly don't know it all yet, although I kinda wish I did, I'd be a millionaire then! Even though I may not agree with some of the posters here, I almost always can find some sort of lesson if I pay attention, and if nothing else, I can take away what works for me and ignore the rest.

OP, something that is important to being 'good' at training, especially if you intend to instruct others, is learning to communicate effectively, and I for one, find it somewhat difficult to understand exactly what you are trying to convey in your posts. It also seems as if you are misunderstanding what many others are saying, so perhaps you could work on your communications skills and that might help you enjoy this forum more?
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