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Thread: TIGHT Inbreeding Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
03-09-2014 10:38 AM
coachcj
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg1 View Post
It seems like it is used successfully in other breeds to fix temperment traits which is what specifically interests me. Game dogs, hounds, mals etc.
No doubt about it, Blitzkrieg.More breeders from the breeds that you mentioned are more apt to line up on a great dog or a great cross to truly see what they're working with, good or bad". With that being said, one thing that hasn't been touched on is the role that economics or mentality of the breeders play as far as breeding styles of different breeds are concerned. When some breeders pay thousands of dollars to import those well-bred pups or brood females from overseas, heck, the first goal is trying to at least break even.I believe that culling is out of the question for some (not all, but definitely some). On the flip side anyone who's ever been around houndsmen understand that the mentality among them is "papers don't hunt" or "dogs can't read".

I do understand , however, that there are lines of GSD with very strong temperaments , but also very high coincidences of HD. It may be a good thing;If the GSD breeders had the mentality of the Dutch or other breeds that you've mentioned, then those babies might have been thrown out with the bath water.
03-08-2014 05:33 PM
carmspack not so easy in a utility breed - the simpler the purpose the easier it is .

the web link should have been http://windridgek9.com/ click on this link The Downside of Inbreeding: It's Time For A New Approach

with articles by C A Sharp "C.A. Sharp is editor of the "Double Helix Network News". This article appeared in Vol. IV, No. 3 (Summer 1998). It may be reprinted providing it is not altered and appropriate credit is given.
03-08-2014 02:20 PM
Blitzkrieg1
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
"In regards to HD Im assuming in any tight breeding you will have a higher then average cull rate."

not necessarily -- depends on what you start with

the tight breeding will intensify anything that you have , good or bad -Most breeds started out with this situation, to fix certain characteristics, more so the visual cosmetic type, rather than the behavioural. This includes the GSD when they wanted to fix the physical type of Horand with the erect ear carriage . Then when temperament suffered they would dive right back into the farm-herd dogs which may have had a wavy coat and drop ear , cosmetics not being important , temperament very important .
In the 1939 interview with Hirta von Stephanitz she said this was exactly the plan .
You can use it to problem solve . You can use it to reveal.
It seems like it is used successfully in other breeds to fix temperment traits which is what specifically interests me. Game dogs, hounds, mals etc.
03-08-2014 02:18 PM
Blitzkrieg1
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmspack View Post

Interesting pedigrees on some of the dogs especially the Pike son however I cannot take anything in that article seriously. Its clear she is trying to make excuses for not actually working or competing with her dogs in a serious venue that proves her stock. Just another pet breeder.
03-08-2014 01:58 PM
Nigel This page is about Bassett hounds, but I was trying to understand what they are describing, especially the spoken/written explanation. What does the "3, 3, to 2 represent? I see Brahms is used twice in the 3rd generation males side and once on the dams side in the second, but I'm confused on how they've expressed in "Kelly is line bred on Bahms 3.3/2


LETíS TALK LINEBREEDING
03-08-2014 11:52 AM
carmspack http://windridgek9.com/
03-08-2014 11:43 AM
carmspack "In regards to HD Im assuming in any tight breeding you will have a higher then average cull rate."

not necessarily -- depends on what you start with

the tight breeding will intensify anything that you have , good or bad -Most breeds started out with this situation, to fix certain characteristics, more so the visual cosmetic type, rather than the behavioural. This includes the GSD when they wanted to fix the physical type of Horand with the erect ear carriage . Then when temperament suffered they would dive right back into the farm-herd dogs which may have had a wavy coat and drop ear , cosmetics not being important , temperament very important .
In the 1939 interview with Hirta von Stephanitz she said this was exactly the plan .
You can use it to problem solve . You can use it to reveal.
03-08-2014 11:10 AM
Blitzkrieg1
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
sorry meant to provide an example of what Blitzkrieg is curious about
Projays Femanus

father to daughter breeding .

good thread on inbred lines -- http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...red-lines.html
Another interesting ped. I wish there was more info on the dam used as there is no hips or elbow rating. I also dont know Manus was he a dog worth going tight on? Ill assume the goale was to get Nick 3-2 but Im thinking you really have to be carful what dogs you use to bring that. In regards to HD Im assuming in any tight breeding you will have a higher then average cull rate. Thats the price you pay, so if you want to make good money off the pups probably not the best idea. I would think the goal of such a breeding would be to create breeding stock with a strong expression of the traits you want. Hopefully they would pass that on to their offspring better then an outcross.
03-08-2014 11:08 AM
carmspack you can be very selective against hip dysplasia , which is multi factorial, needing attention to genetics, nutrition and environment .

you look into the depth of good hip production , not just what the breeding individuals are.

there is a misconception that an excellent will produce better than a fair. there is a misunderstanding about the nature of "fair" many thinking it is on the verge of falling apart , when it is not .

In Germany, Mutz Pelztierfarm had an NZ , probably would have been rejected outright for breeding had it been OFA. Yet this Mutz was used because he improved hips ! and contributed much character and hardness .

that is a complex issue , which also needs some balance.
03-08-2014 10:58 AM
coachcj
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
sorry meant to provide an example of what Blitzkrieg is curious about
Projays Femanus

father to daughter breeding .

good thread on inbred lines -- http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...red-lines.html
I think this answer from Cliff (from the given link)pretty much answers my question (after many years of me wondering and asking)


" it becomes complex with this breed because of the initial makeup of the breed in the first place. People like Christine, Chris, Lee, Lisa, Carmen, Sue, know of lines that are super strong in temperament especially nerve and hardness. But....some of these lines over the years have proven to show a higher incidence of HD. Do you not use these lines because you increase the chances of HD....Heaven forbid, if you want the breed to remain as courageous as its past. Yet you cannot continually pound these lines generation after generation or the HD factor will increase in severity until the functionality of the dog is compromised. So there has to be a balance, because the breed was created out of balances and when it strays to far from the middle, it inadvertently affects more than one area. "
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