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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-04-2014 01:26 PM
fivekai I know im reviving a thread thats a couple of months old. But after all of this discussion about defining what is a PPD. And of course we have all heard of those companies out there selling dogs for 40 thousand dollars.

1. Where would you go to purchase a dog that has the potential to be a PPD?

2. Where would you recommend someone go to purchase a trained PPD?

Please be specific and state breeders , trainers or particular kennels you would recommend that train and breed to standards you believe make the best PPD possible.

I understand that all dogs even from the same line do have different temperaments and have to be evaluated individually. but there has to be breeders/kennels that are consistently breeding dogs with the qualities required to make a nice stable PPD
12-19-2013 10:44 AM
carmspack selection -- when you have the basic sound dog all good things are possible.

credentials, longevity, record -- this is one that would have my confidence About Us
12-19-2013 09:53 AM
Blanketback Merciel, that's an interesting case - thank you for sharing it. It brings up another question of mine (ugh, because I can never be satisfied with any answer - there's always the, "yeah, but what if..." lol) sorry about how my mind works.

I moved from the 'big bad city' when I realized I wasn't young and invincible any more - and the crime was spiraling. Fast forward to today, and I'm in a nice rural residential area. I hope so anyway, there's been one incident where the home was broken into and the residents murdered, but nobody knows much about that , what provoked it. So I'd like to think 'crime of passion' or something, something personal. Something that's not related to me at all.

In the city closest to me we have little gang wanna be's and (from what I've been told, from those close to the victims) their initiation to the gang is to hospitalize someone. So random people, while out walking and minding their own business, have been slashed in the face. How lovely is that?

Which brings up: what is a threat? If I was out walking at night and saw a group of teens, then I'd be afraid that they were going to target me. But to go into court and defend myself - say something happened and my dog bit one of them - then from another's view I might just seem paranoid and my (my dogs) action unfounded. Does that make sense?

I don't really know where I'm going with this, lol. But hey, it's the chat room, so whatever. As long as some people remember to hit delete before post, the thread should stay open and we can keep talking, lol.
12-18-2013 11:42 PM
Originally Posted by martemchik View Post
lol I love how because I made smart, conscious decisions to avoid crime while living in a dangerous area my opinion in this subject means nothing. I love that because I used other available resources to me to stay safe without the need for a PPD my opinion means nothing.

Shhh... Grown-ups are talking.
12-18-2013 08:03 PM
bill Yes if he would have attacked an unarmed man you are right! But if he had the right dog maybe he would have felt safer"And if the guy did have a gun the dog could have saved his life! You are right we will never know. sad ending when anyone has to die.Bill

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12-18-2013 07:30 PM
Merciel Yep, that's true, in that fact pattern a life might have been spared if it had been the right dog instead of a gun.

At the cost of considerable financial liability and possibly losing the dog, but even so, I suspect that particular defendant would have preferred that outcome to going to jail for a long time and having his own life ruined.

But the world will never know.
12-18-2013 07:16 PM
bill You can call a dog back! When the bullet leaves the gun its to late ; That's were a PPD could save a life.Bill

Sent from Free App
12-18-2013 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by David Winners View Post
It's nice to know a couple expert witnesses that regularly get called into court for LE / SAR stuff and have a track record with the judicial system in the area.
That it is.

And while I very much hope it never comes to that, I will note in passing that you would probably be pretty much the ideal test case for this area. Maybe just a thought to keep in a back pocket somewhere, I dunno.

@ alex -- so, belatedly, a clumsy attempt to explain what I was getting at: basically, it is the idea that a dog who has been trained to attack people will do so under much less unusual circumstances, and with a less overt threshold, than the average pet dog. You would have to argue that a "normal dog" (whatever that even means) would respond a certain way to that situation, and that your dog did not just attack because it's been trained to do that.

I think this probably would not make much difference in a situation where the dog made a justified attack. But in a gray area* it could really hurt you, and if you were so unfortunate as to have a poorly trained unstable "PPD" (which I do think is a definite possibility for some people who get taken in by scammers and unscrupulous trainers), then you are really going to be in trouble.

* -- gray area hypo, taken from a real case I had: Guy is in bed with his girlfriend early one morning when her phone rings. He overhears the conversation and realizes that her ex-boyfriend is coming over, and the ex is mad because he knows the current boyfriend is there now. He also knows that the ex is a serious drug dealer, has a bad temper, and carries a gun while dealing drugs.

Guy decides to get out of there because he doesn't want any trouble. However, before he can make it into his own car and drive away, the ex pulls up, gets out of his car, and approaches the guy. No overt threats are spoken -- in fact, no words are exchanged at all -- but the ex reaches into a pocket as he walks up. Guy, thinking that the ex is about to pull out a gun and shoot him, panics and unloads three bullets into the dude, killing him.

Turns out the ex did not have a gun or any other weapon on his person. The encounter happens on the street so there's no defense of home (and it's the girlfriend's home anyway).

I'm not really looking for an answer here, I'm just throwing out the fact pattern because that is one where, to this day, I think that's the closest thing I've ever had to a semi-legitimate self-defense claim. (There are other facts I'm not including in this writeup that ultimately made it more clearly not a valid self-defense claim, but for the sake of discussion, just pretend the case is as I described it.)

In that scenario, if it's a dog that goes for the ex-boyfriend instead of three bullets, what happens? I don't know. But that is one where I think it might matter to the court whether your dog had been trained in bitework or not -- again, not because it would necessarily alter how the dog would respond, but because it would alter how the court perceived the dog.
12-18-2013 05:54 PM
David Winners
Originally Posted by Merciel View Post
"Typical" is a hard question to answer. This is gonna get complicated, so bear with me.

I don't know anything about Canadian law really (I barely know anything about American law once you get outside PA), so I couldn't begin to tell you whether this is representative of Canadian statutes or is an outlier in some way.

Another factor is that caselaw -- how courts interpret and apply the language of the statute -- will have a huge influence on the outcome of a real case, and I don't know anything at all about Ontario's caselaw (or, for that matter, whether it matters quite as much in Canada as it would in the U.S., where the higher courts' prior decisions are binding and not just advisory).

For example, this statute explicitly defines "pit bull" as APBTs, Staffies, AmStaffs, and "pit bull terriers," but it doesn't say anything about American Bulldogs. So does an American Bulldog count as a "pit bull" in Ontario? I don't know. The statute doesn't say. The statute does say:

So, if you were a concerned owner worried about the safety of your dog, you might choose not to move to Ontario with your American Bulldog just to be on the safe side, because you might think that's not a gamble worth making. But without a case to actually tell you, it's unknown. That's why caselaw matters -- it can have a huge impact on how the statute is actually applied in the real world.

If your dog bit someone (or someone else's pet) in Ontario, going only by this statute (because, again, I know nothing about Ontario's caselaw), you would be liable for paying whatever hospital bills, vet bills, etc. were incurred, UNLESS your dog bit an intruder who broke into your home to commit a crime (in which case you're automatically good to go, no problem). If your dog bit somebody who appeared to be attacking you on the street, your financial liability would go down proportional to howevermuch that person provoked the attack. That is pretty standard across most dog laws I've seen.

However, if it's not a crystal-clear "good" bite, your dog might be seized and destroyed. Or it might "only" have to be confined, muzzled, perpetually leashed, and/or kept in a place with posted warning signs everywhere. (Oh, and immediately neutered, because of course we can't have vicious dogs breeding.)

But it's not mandatory. The court might decide to do something else (unless you have a pit bull, in which case it looks to me like you are SOL and the court has no discretion -- the dog must be seized and destroyed, because Ontario sure does have it out for pitties. I'm not completely sold on this, but on first read, I think the pittie gets destroyed even if it's a "good" bite).

Here's what I think the kicker is for PPDs and any other bite trained dog:

Keeping in mind that most people (and, importantly, most judges) know NOTHING about bitesport training or protection training or anything else -- remember, the public perception is that IPO (so often derided as "just a sport"!) is HORRIBLE VICIOUS ATTACK DOG TRAINING OMG and nothing else -- it is my guess that if it came out in court that your dog had bite training, the courts would immediately jump to the conclusion that every single one of the factors in that seven-point list would cut against you.

Not because that's accurate (I would hope we all know enough in this thread to recognize that it's not at all accurate), but because there is a massive public misperception about what responsible bite training is or looks like.

And because of that, even if you are a great and conscientious and totally responsible owner, I think you have to keep in the back of your mind that the courts don't know you, they don't know your dog, and the deck is stacked against you if you ever find yourself defending a case there.

Anyway, that's a super long massive post. Hopefully at least some percentage of it actually answered the question you wanted to ask.
Thanks! You explained that very well.

It's nice to know a couple expert witnesses that regularly get called into court for LE / SAR stuff and have a track record with the judicial system in the area.
12-18-2013 05:44 PM
David Winners
Originally Posted by martemchik View Post
lol I love how because I made smart, conscious decisions to avoid crime while living in a dangerous area my opinion in this subject means nothing. I love that because I used other available resources to me to stay safe without the need for a PPD my opinion means nothing.

I guess the only opinion I can have about gsds is that they go woof once in a while. I guess to matter on this forum you either have to spend years in the military, or breed dogs for 40 years before you can say you know something. I should go out and become a victim of a crime, that way at least I'll have some weight in this issue.

I guess for all you sport people as well...if your dog has never protected you in a real situation, not just biting a sleeve, you know nothing as well.
I told you that you wouldn't like it.

Try and put yourself in my place. I wrote one post, just one post, disagreeing with your viewpoint. In that post I did my absolute best to explain my point of view in such a way that you could understand how I came to the conclusions I did. I didn't disrespect you, resort to name calling, or attack you in any manner. I simply used your words to show you why I disagree.

Read back through this thread and count the number of posts that disagree with my point of view. There are a lot. Now count the number that thoroughly explain why they disagree. I was respectful enough of your point of view to go back and address your specific arguments, instead of dismissing you, because you disagree, without justification.

You didn't respond to any of my questions or differing opinions, you just got defensive, but you expect far more from me. I'm supposed to prove my point for it to be a valid argument, but you don't hold yourself to the same.

This thread, and the conflict shown in the last few pages, is an example of why some more experienced people don't post much here. I have actually received PMs validating this statement. Speaking for myself, it's not that I get offended that someone disagrees with me. I totally invite that! Discussion is the harbinger of learning, and I'm all about learning. Opinions based in conjecture should be voiced as such. Notice I did not say that they shouldn't be voiced!

I don't know what you are proficient in, but I'm sure you are really good at something. You are intelligent and driven. Let's say, for the sake of discussion, that it's medical equipment repair. If we were discussing the pros and cons of a PDP1170 respirator (I made that up, so don't google it) and you had years of experience with that particular model. I, on the other hand, just breathe a lot (usually through my mouth). The discussion wouldn't be about the finer aspects of the PDP1170, because I wouldn't have the knowledge to speak intelligently concerning it's manufacture or quality. All I could do is base an opinion on what facts I may have, combined with what my gut tells me.

What if you knew through experience that the PDP1170 was a POS, and was hard to work on, and required more maintenance than any other respirator. But I was kept alive by one for 3 weeks in intensive care, so I argued that they were the best piece of equipment on the planet and I wanted 3 for my garage just in case.

I hope you understand.

Sorry for the interruption to the thread.
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