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Thread: Deciding breed worthiness based on hip scores Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
12-08-2013 06:42 AM
robk My male's mother is rated as OFA fair. She has had several litters. None have developed signs of HD. Of her off spring that have been tested one was prelimmed OFA Good and two were Pinn Hipped in the 85th percentile. I have not had my male's hips done yet.

As a side note, I am keeping the mother for a few month and I have to tell you that she is an absolutely wonderful dog, beautiful mover, extremely fun dog to work with. After spending time with her, I would have no problem purchasing an OFA fair dog if the rest of the package was as nice a dog as she is.
12-07-2013 11:06 AM
Catu
Quote:
Know the Genetic Load but Don't Obsess About it

By "genetic load" we mean the total complement of genes within a population that can negatively affect the fitness of individual animals. Some of these genes are known; many remain poorly understood or unknown. The breeder should at least be well aware of genetic problem areas within the breed. Some will be breed-specific (syringomyelia in Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, the purine metabolism defect in Dalmatians); more will be common to most or all canine breeds (epilepsy, canine hip dysplasia) but in some breeds may be associated with particular bloodlines.

Breeders are told that to produce animals with genetic defects marks them as "bad breeders," so they tend not to share information about such defects. They are also told that their objective should be to "eliminate" these genes, which is used as justification for inbreeding and expensive screening programmes. This kind of advice builds up an obsessive attitude towards genetic load. People spend endless time discussing specific defects, individual animals, screening programmes and the like, whilst ignoring the true causes of genetic disease.

It is unlikely that canine genetic load can be effectively eliminated, at least at the present stage of genetic knowledge. Not until the functions and interactions of all genes in the dog genome are fully known, and gene surgery commonplace, would that become a real possibility.

It is therefore important that breeders share knowledge about genetic load within their breeds, so that they can avoid unfortunate breeding combinations. Authors such as Malcolm Willis and Jerold Bell insist that outbreeding "covers up" recessive defects. Indeed it does and indeed it should! That is exactly what nature itself does, and no one criticises natural evolutionary processes or recommends that natural populations should be inbred instead of mated naturally. The fact that inbreeding "exposes" recessives is not necessarily helpful, because in most cases it is impractical to remove or "eliminate" the "defect" genes. Rather, breeding should be guided in such a way as to avoid reinforcement of known recessives whilst maintaining genetic diversity in the population.

Screening and selection can never succeed as a strategy for the "elimination" of genetic disease. As one defect is eliminated, others will be reinforced, and the latter state of the breed will be worse than the former. The genetic load must be known, tolerated and managed; to obsess about its elimination will lead only to disaster.
Population Genetics in Practice
12-06-2013 11:34 AM
brembo
Quote:
Originally Posted by hunterisgreat View Post
There isn't a single genetic marker... Rather a large amount of genetic code that defines the structure, ligament robustness, etc.

For example (making this up) If one dog had poor femoral head coverage but ligaments of steel, he might never show symptoms. A dog with excellent femoral head coverage but ligaments like worn out rubber bands might OFA excellent and never show symptoms. Breed the two and you may get excellent covered super ligament dogs with perfect hips, and poor covered slack ligament dogs that can't walk without sever pain, in the same litter.
Ohhh, see I was under the impression that HD was a bone only issue. Didn't know that the ligaments were also a variable. Connective tissue, cartilage, bone density and shape are all a factor. Waaay to many variables to narrow down the field to a guaranteed great hip situation. Bet a good osteo doc could whip up a list of things, with priority given to the major mechanics to really help in decisions. Gads, the funds needed to test just one dog across the spectrum would be insane.
12-06-2013 11:25 AM
hunterisgreat
Quote:
Originally Posted by brembo View Post
How strongly does the breeding of two "excellent" hipped dogs correlate to offspring? Direct ratio(as in genetic traits for coat type) or is more a nebulous "odds are" situation?

This is a hard question to parse. I guess I am asking if hips have a genetic marker or not. Would a pairing with pedigrees that stretch back for 10 generations with perfect hips have a better chance or almost guaranteed outcome of great hips?
There isn't a single genetic marker... Rather a large amount of genetic code that defines the structure, ligament robustness, etc.

For example (making this up) If one dog had poor femoral head coverage but ligaments of steel, he might never show symptoms. A dog with excellent femoral head coverage but ligaments like worn out rubber bands might OFA excellent and never show symptoms. Breed the two and you may get excellent covered super ligament dogs with perfect hips, and poor covered slack ligament dogs that can't walk without sever pain, in the same litter.
12-06-2013 11:18 AM
hunterisgreat Hips are but one element of the dog... If I really liked the sire for other reasons, and he had fair hips, BUT showed no symptoms of HD, I'd be fine with it... If the dam was also fair I'd be a bit concerned but not outright against it.

If the pedigree is littered with bad hips I'd not breed/get a puppy, even if both parents were OFA excellent
12-06-2013 07:14 AM
JeanKBBMMMAAN Not a buyer or breeder, but I'd be looking at elbows because the front carries the weight and they are much harder to fully repair at this time. And the spine.
12-05-2013 11:03 PM
gsdsar Thanks everyone. HD is so prevalent in our breed, just curious as to what educated breeders and buyers think. To me " fair" is fine. But I know lots of people shy away from it.


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12-05-2013 10:54 PM
marbury
Quote:
Originally Posted by brembo View Post
How strongly does the breeding of two "excellent" hipped dogs correlate to offspring? Direct ratio(as in genetic traits for coat type) or is more a nebulous "odds are" situation?

This is a hard question to parse. I guess I am asking if hips have a genetic marker or not. Would a pairing with pedigrees that stretch back for 10 generations with perfect hips have a better chance or almost guaranteed outcome of great hips?
I heard a statistic tossed out on here that 1 in 10 excellent-excellent breedings is a HD. No data at all to back that up, but perhaps whomever originally put that out has research they could link (I honestly don't remember). I know the litter that produced the sire of my male was an excellent/excellent, and they threw multiple HD dogs. It's much less about the score of the dogs and much more about the litter as a whole. If you have an excellent dog but all seven other siblings are fair or HD I wouldn't touch it.
12-05-2013 03:58 PM
David Taggart I was scared of HD. I bought Lucy from Austria, she is EGSD - the only line vertually HD free. Home
Western line dogs have more "fire" in them, they are more playful. Eastern ones are bigger, more muscular, and they are rather calm dogs in comparison.
12-05-2013 03:42 PM
elisabeth_00117 As a buyer, I would want to see the whole picture... so I would dive into the pedigree and really ensure I had a knowledge of what other relatives were rated AND producing. For me, I want to see the whole picture and although hips are of course important, Fair is still a pass so it wouldn't deter me from purchasing but it would make me take a better look at the whole picture of the dog being bred and the relatives of said dog.
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