|08-19-2013 08:15 PM|
Yup. I don't know for sure either. Like you, it definitely is a preference for me to have a more biddable dog with higher pack drive.
My Smitty dog is pretty independent, could care less if I'm happy with him, sad, whatever he just goes off and does his thing. Sometimes it's a good thing but he has been a challenge for me. I tried purely positive and for us (maybe due to my lack of skill too) it just didn't 'open' that door. It's like my lack of timing/skill coupled with his low pack drive was setting us up to fail at first. Though we're doing good now and I love the goober to bits. I wouldn't go out of my way to get another dog like that....
|08-19-2013 05:56 PM|
One thing that I have heard emphasized as important is clear-headedness/good impulse control. A difficulty that people sometimes talk about is a dog who won't "out" in the heat of the fight because he's so wrapped up in trying to defeat the helper. A clear-headed dog who can still hear his handler and think things through is much easier to train without needing compulsion to knock down his level of arousal.
It's possible to improve self-control with exercises designed specifically to help that, but if you have a dog who really gets lost in the action then you might have some trouble getting a force-free "out." Or so I'm told. This is all secondhand, obviously I've never done it.
Really, at this point my plan is just to throw this whole big pile of chaos and confusion in front of the breeder and let them figure out which puppy to give me. And then, I guess, we'll do however we do, and learn whatever we can.
|08-19-2013 05:05 PM|
I think Merciel has captured the essence of the difficulty of not using any physical corrections when training for protection sport/work.
When clicker training became all the rage amongst the horsie set I saw horses that used to stand quietly for the farrier become horrible with their ground manners, like spoiled brats really. My farrier fumed over it too...poor guy no fun being under 1000 pounds of animal that thinks it should have a choice in the matter.
Anyhoo my point is people can screw up a dog (or horse) pretty badly with the 'pure' positive training methods as it does require (IMHO) better timing, more consistency and more time to train that way.
It can be done but to get superior results for high levels of competition probably is akin to climbing Mt. Everest, hence the reason it's such a small group of already knowledgeable trainers attempting it in IPO.
Great posts Merciel, this has been an interesting thread.
On the sport/working dog side one thing I've pondered and chatted with M. about is how much genetic biddability/pack drive come into play. In other words a dog that actively seeks reward via pleasing his handler would be easier to train sans physical corrections...or not?
|08-19-2013 04:49 PM|
Very well said Cliff. Thank you!
Another reason is that it's just plain hard. Incredibly hard. IPO is already a very demanding sport. Trying to do it without force is a little bit like climbing Mt. Everest with one hand tied behind your back and half the tools thrown out of your kit.
The problem is also that people see IPO as Mt. Everest instead of the practice wall. It was never meant to be a final product. Just a stepping stone. But I guess that's a conversation for another time.
|08-19-2013 04:14 PM|
|08-19-2013 04:11 PM|
Your bro raised his dogs they way he wanted and it works well for him. Worry about your dogs and do the best you can.
He raised his dogs for family protection and not for show. There are dozens of ways to train and they all get results. Some are harsh, some are cold and militant, some are loving and some are cerebral.
Dogs are individuals and no two dogs respond the same to the same training. They will all have distinct traits handed down by the alpha.
My doberman was cold, predictable and only loving inside at night when he laid at our feet. He was not trained like a GSD. He was trained for a job. He was to protect our family and property. He was alpha rolled maybe 5 times in his life. It was for good reason and it was intense. He understood and corrected the mistake. Was he a liability? Of course. We had a well trained weapon for our protection. He lived a good life with the best shelter and food. He saved life, he protected property and he never bit anybody who didn't deserve it.
|08-19-2013 03:44 PM|
Amina, I know you'd like to see better OB from your own dogs and perhaps looking at your brother's dogs make you wonder if you're raising yours right. You say his are so well trained and such, but when I read your OP I also see that his dog is completely unpredictable and will randomly bite when in a situation that provokes him. That's a huge problem to me, and that's why I'd say your brother shouldn't be a role model for training.
I'm very physical with my dogs: in play, giving affection, and also correcting. I don't have a problem with it and neither do they. I'm not beating them or correcting them into next week, just reminding them what's what.
But I'm also a better learner this way. I've had a few driving instuctors and my favorite was the one who slapped my hands when I wouldn't execute the hand-over-hand technique. Huh, one slap and I never made the mistake again. My favorite boss was a screamer. Oh boy, did I ever learn alot from him. He was also very fair and if I stayed late he'd go buy me dinner and always gave me some extra cash for my efforts. He was very generous with raises too.
I think that's the key: be fair, be generous with praise, and be extremely careful that you're consistant at all times. If the rules never vary, and the routine is always the same, the consequences are expected, then it's easy for the dog to understand what you want. That said, this time around I opted for a clicker class for my puppy and I thoroughly enjoyed the experience, and have gotten some amazing results with this type of training.
|08-19-2013 03:35 PM|
Same with LE/MWD/PPDs
|08-19-2013 03:31 PM|
When other branches train without compulsion, the results are inferior, and for a number of reasons...
|08-19-2013 03:22 PM|
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