|09-27-2013 01:53 PM|
FWIW, I have a female from Endy Von Karthago and Xenia von den Wölfen.
Maja aus dem Elbtal is intelligent, focused, and obedient. She has not competed yet, and maybe never will, but she is a great family dog.
Endy is certainly beautiful though...I know the breeder who keeps Xenia, and they are good folks, very knowledgeable about breeding.
|08-13-2013 12:30 AM|
Carmen - I posted this picture of my Javir son a while back and you gave me some very favorable comments that I really appreciated. He was 17 months old when this picture was taken.
PICT0056 by BlackDogsPhoto, on Flickr
He is over 2 years old now and lives in the house with my family and other dogs (and a cat who thinks he's a dog). He is very affectionate and social. Loves when guests come over and loves to go on outings. I would say he is a sound dog.
My husband is his handler but I have watched a lot all of his training. My husband trains with this dog daily. He trains in I.P.O. and scent detection. Sundance is a working and certified Accelerant Detection Canine (see my signature for link for more info). The I.P.O. or sport is a secondary thing so I doubt you'll ever see these two at a big competition, the accelerant detection work is primary.
And a side note, just because I know you like herding, Sundance has also obtained his H.I.C. with some very favorable comments from the judge. Of course this was AKC herding and not HGH which the judge pointed out that he would be better at the later. My husband was not interested in herding and he didn't want to pursue that training and chose I.P.O. instead.
I agree with the comment that Javir and all dogs have to be bred correctly or of course all sorts of problems could crop up.
PS. Going to watch a Bomber progeny compete at a local trial this weekend at level 3. I'm looking forward to it. The other dogs being talked about here - I have never seen nor do I have any personal experience with so I won't bother to comment.
|08-12-2013 10:28 PM|
Like all dogs Javir had to be bred correctly. The best progeny I saw were from breeders that knew what they were doing and didn't just breed to him because he was V (BSZS), 4X BSP and 3X WUSV. Javir, also, was a sleeper and the kids that I know and have handled work out of aggression and are not prey monsters. Many current trainers/helpers would probably dismiss them because of this.
Javir's value is in his practically extinct sire line that goes back through Claudius Hain (like Carmen pointed out earlier), Urs Hopfenstraße and some of the old herding lines plus his bitch line back through Ira Körbelbach and Arthus Lünsholz who dam is again an excellent source of the old working blood.
|08-12-2013 06:21 PM|
|cliffson1||I think this point flew over many people's head, popular studs are often bred to lacking females hoping for overcompensation. That was major problem with Yoschy and Fero, IN HINDSIGHT.....many many of the females were not good genetic matches, and in some cases strengthened negative recessives though they were hoping for other results. These dogs were subsequently bred because they were Fero/Yoschy sons or daughters.....there's a lot to this breeding thing!|
|08-12-2013 05:49 PM|
Again, I would like to clarify that I am not for/against any particular dog. I am just trying to better understand the judge's comment. Maybe some perspective that I missed.
|08-12-2013 05:00 PM|
Popular in germany I don´t think mean always good producing dog, if we look at the workinglines it seems breeders select dogs ranging from because they are "beautifull", good points in competitions, actually strong dogs or maybe a little bit of both or some other alternative, good marketing maybe
I know endy was to much dog for his previous owner and therefore ended up with the breeder he is located by now, who titled him but it was not an easy dog to show in competition. A breeder from a policebackground here in scandinaia are planning to use endy for the third time. According to this person few dogs impress him, some dogs are described as extreme by owner or breeders, but this is seldom true, most are ordinary, some bad and a few are of the kind you more seldom see, endy is a dog with the intensity and drive it was many years since this person saw, and I think the breeder in germnay who has endy has also quite high demands what is a good dog, he also has an endy son now that seems to be much dog so to speak.
So I think endy is popular because of his workingqualities and what he produces. Drago I don´t know much about, more than he is a bit to independent for sport if that´s true. It´s an intressting topic thou how you can "read" a dog in competition and say what is good or not, not so easy if you haven´t quite much experience, but I can see why people think both endy and drago are quality dogs and not "pointdogs", rember not all good dogs produces themselves either.
|08-12-2013 12:50 PM|
|carmspack||thank you for showing me Verdi Karthago !! V Verdi von Karthago|
|08-12-2013 12:23 PM|
I observed one for several hours in a social setting....I talked to a trainer/judge who had the littermate in her club...and heard about the temperament of that dog from the person in the social setting .....this litter I almost have to discount the issues because I do not like the description of the dam's personality or her pedigree...those were not temperaments I could live with...that is ONE litter....
Others I have discussed had some good dogs and bad dogs - bad elbows, temperament...in same litter....litter bred in Germany....and a few others were just nothing especially negative or super wonderful terrific positive reported yet....as you say, perhaps in a few generations there will be something special click and pop out....have talked to a couple of people very happy with their Javier progeny....
There were two other Dago SP sons being bred here in the US....Dean C's Verdi Karthago and Basko Haus Heldman.....Basko sired a litter from a Basha daughter, Marsha Seck's Elsa...male from that litter is very powerful, and on podium at WDC (3rd) and top 10 National last fall....talked to some people who know the dog who were nearby at Nationals when he was showing - have very high praise for him....young dog in first year of trialing, so he will be competing and hopefully being used for breeding.
|08-12-2013 12:10 PM|
very lumpy phrasing because I was distracted by a phone call - sort of lost my train of thought.
so would you say that your (wolfstraum) information on Javir is that his progeny doesn't cut it for "top sport" , but they are normal , dogs that you can live with ?
my one thing I said was if you keep going to extreme , which sport seems to reward , then you will get those hair trigger reactive dogs, who self damage , chase tails or other obsessive activity, with soundness of temperament in question.
Are the Javir progeny at least SOUND . Would the basic owner user be well served. Did the progeny have a desire to work. Would they do well in any other working capacity outside of sport . BECAUSE sport is not the be all and end all of the GSD world , nor should it be the only aspect which puts value and worth on the dog ---
that does go full circle - many of the dogs discussed are "top sport"
|08-12-2013 12:03 PM|
I know this wolfstraum --- maybe too many breedings , wrong females ??
Maybe the "normal" but is producing "normal dogs" nothing particularly outstanding competitively -- is different outside the real of competition?
that is why I framed my use of his example of a pedigree with "I have not followed his production , I do not know whether he has made as much of a positive contribution as expected."
and did mention your words " his popularity a product of the right training and showcasing" and my wording "I do question promotion , arbiters of taste which determine the trending of lines "
I do occasionally look in on Javir , just to see. I do wonder though because he does conserve some very important , not so sporty, valuable herding lines , whether someone with a known continual line went out to use him or improved son/daughter , expected not-on-the-money first generation and started directing it the second then third to an overall place where you want to be. First generation I wouldn't foresee things going south, maybe a static state.
ah yes breeding , the art and science of it -- complex
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