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Thread: Sit Means Sit - collar enforced training Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
03-28-2015 07:09 PM
SuperG Appreciate the straightforward response.....


SuperG
03-28-2015 05:27 PM
LouCastle
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperG View Post
I have a specific situation...2 1/2 year old GSD intact bitch...reactive to other dogs while leashed. I have made some reasonable progress over the past year but far from our goal of being able to go anywhere and everywhere allowable. I started off at local dog training classes which employed the desensitizing and counter conditioning methods...all positive and feel good stuff. What I did find of interest was when the owner of this outfit offered to handle my dog for a bit and demonstrate...the owner did okay and then proceeded to close the distance between some other dogs in the class...and in a heartbeat my dog went over threshold which was met with the lady hanging my dog on her prong...she looked at me and said " she has a real hair trigger doesn't she?" so much for the all positive... personally I didn't mind but it seemed to be a bit of testimony on the owner's behalf about DS/CC....kind of made me laugh.
I laugh too, but not in a good way. The hypocrisy of some of these folks is astounding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperG View Post
Anyway, a couple of forum members have directed me to build focus with my dog and utilize the benefits from this focus towards the DA problem...this instruction has helped the most as I continue it today. However, whether it is because I grow impatient or want to explore any and all methods to correct this problem, [/b] I politely ask you if this particular situation can be remedied by an e-collar if properly used? [/b]

SuperG
I can't give you any guarantees, there's no such thing in dog training. But here are a few addendum to that comment. I have personally done the crittering/dog to dog aggression protocol, over 200 times. It failed one time. That was when the owner refused to do some work at home that was necessary to change the dog's environment. It's a long story but suffice it to say that the dog was practicing the wrong thing on a daily basis. No amount of training will overcome that.

Basically, the protocol teaches the dog to turn his head and look away from the other dog. It's impossible to be aggressive towards something that you cannot look at. First, you have to understand that MOST dog to do aggression is fear based. There are very few truly aggressive dogs out there and there's no reason to believe that your dog is one of them. Your description of his behavior speaks to fear, not aggression.

Second, when this "looking away" becomes a habit, some dogs learn that there was nothing to fear in the first place and they become friendly towards dogs they used to be aggressive towards. But many dogs just stop the display that's intended to show the other dog how big and tough he is, in an effort to keep the other dog from approaching any closer. I don't require that dogs trained with this protocol "frolic and play" with other dogs, just that they don't harm them. This has been the case with every dog that I've done the protocol with, with the one exception that I mentioned.

Here's some video that an owner sent me after using the protocol on her dog. This is an extraordinary result and more than anyone should expect. As I said, most dogs just shut off the displays of aggression. No one has ever been able to definitively tell me which dog was the one that was formerly aggressive!

03-28-2015 03:53 PM
SuperG
Quote:
Originally Posted by LouCastle View Post

If you have some specific situation in mind, please bring it to the discussion.
I have a specific situation...2 1/2 year old GSD intact bitch...reactive to other dogs while leashed. I have made some reasonable progress over the past year but far from our goal of being able to go anywhere and everywhere allowable. I started off at local dog training classes which employed the desensitizing and counter conditioning methods...all positive and feel good stuff. What I did find of interest was when the owner of this outfit offered to handle my dog for a bit and demonstrate...the owner did okay and then proceeded to close the distance between some other dogs in the class...and in a heartbeat my dog went over threshold which was met with the lady hanging my dog on her prong...she looked at me and said " she has a real hair trigger doesn't she?" so much for the all positive...personally I didn't mind but it seemed to be a bit of testimony on the owner's behalf about DS/CC....kind of made me laugh.

Anyway, a couple of forum members have directed me to build focus with my dog and utilize the benefits from this focus towards the DA problem...this instruction has helped the most as I continue it today. However, whether it is because I grow impatient or want to explore any and all methods to correct this problem, I politely ask you if this particular situation can be remedied by an e-collar if properly used?

SuperG
03-28-2015 03:28 PM
LouCastle
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoanMcM View Post
I am adding an addendum to my comment then I have to go to work and will converse with you all tomorrow. Addendum: Before you get to the 99% handler error....at the very beginning and unfortunately some experienced trainers miss this... 99.9% of 'problems' are straight out bad husbandry...ie, the dog is not getting enough exercise, the dog is being fed too much crappy food, the dog has a health issue, etc.
I think that most "problems" arise because DWDWDWD ("Dogs Wanna Do, What Dogs Wanna Do"). Dogs have their own agendas, drives and instincts, that are different from ours. Due to these differences, their actions sometimes may be at odds with what we want them to do. It's simply a matter of showing the dog that doing what we want, is to his advantage. If we can get him to believe that it's in his best interest to do this, we're gold.

This has EXACTLY NOTHING to do with "exercise, food or health." You can exercise a dog until he's exhausted and in an hour he'll be ready to tear up your pillows. You can feed him the cheapest, or the best, dog food extant and it will have no effect on his training, if effective methods are used. A dog that is sick (within reason, of course) can still sit on command. This is not to say that these things are not important, in fact they are vital to the dog's health and well being. Good care is a sign of a responsible pet owner. But they have NOTHING to do with training. Exercising a dog so that he's in the best shape of his life, feeding him the best diet that exists, and making sure that he gets the best vet treatment possible, won't get him trained.
03-28-2015 03:27 PM
LouCastle
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Winners View Post
JoanMcM,

About web sales,

There is no charge to view Lou's page or join his forum. He will answer your emails or forum posts at length for free.
As I mentioned briefly in my last post, I also invite phone calls if the issue would take too long to discuss in email.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Winners View Post
I'm interested in how you would go about boundary training a dog with no compulsion in a way that was reliable without the trainer present.
I’m very interested in this too David. I hope Joan answers our questions. But given that she's avoided several of mine already, I don't hold out much hope.
03-28-2015 03:22 PM
LouCastle
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoanMcM View Post
Lou Castle:

I am a trainer where the dog is taught and does not 'figure' how to avoid pain as a method.
Please tell us specifically what tools/methods you use. So far, in this discussion, you've been very general and broad. Since "pain" is a continuum that ranges from, "I'm a little uncomfortable" to "I can't stand that for another second!" I'd bet that your methods use "pain" as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoanMcM View Post
I am not a 100% posititive trainer.
Even those who claim that they ARE "100% positive trainer[s]" are not. Fact is, it's IMPOSSIBLE to train a dog with only positive methods. Some have even gone so far as to make up new terminology to conceal what they are doing and so that they can claim that they are not using punishment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoanMcM View Post
I understand that negative reinforcement is rarely, if ever, needed.
If you'll tell us, in detail, how you train a dog to sit, I bet that I can show that you are using negative reinforcement, and probably positive punishment, as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoanMcM View Post
Frankly, the use of drives are so much more compelling for a dog rather then the use of pain or cookies for that matter.
Please tell us more of this 'drive training system' that you use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoanMcM View Post
Websales do not permit such learning or teaching. Yes, I imagine you have a great number of customers who do not want to spend the time to learn how to train their dog. I imagine that suits you fine. You can dismiss 'pozzies' to rack up another customer and what you don't see does not bother you.
"Websales?" There's nothing to purchase on my site. No Ecollars, no classes, no toys, no gimmicks. It's all free. I do advertise that I do seminars and private lessons, but there's no "click to buy" anything, anywhere. There are about 50 words that "sell" my training, and about 50,000 that teach how to use an Ecollar. Additionally I write here, and elsewhere, quite a bit answering specific questions about use of the tool. I also do so in private emails. Often when there's too much to discuss in email I invite the person to call me. I've spent a couple of hours with folks on this forum in these conversations, all for free. I donate my time at many of my seminars as long as my expenses are met. That's the case with almost all of my work for non-profit organizations. Wondering, how much of your work is done for free?

Contrary to your statement, those who use the site to assist them in learning to use an Ecollar learn quite a bit about how a dog learns and how to train their dog.

I dismiss pozzies when they come across as you have, self−righteous, preachy, judgmental, and telling others that they are doing it wrong, when they have no idea of what others actually do. I almost never barge into their discussions, telling them they're doing it wrong. I wish they would pay us balanced trainers the same courtesy.
03-28-2015 03:22 PM
LouCastle
Quote:
Originally Posted by BARBIElovesSAILOR View Post
Lou Castle:

Question: do you believe your methods and the use of an e collar are appropriate for everyone and every situation? Do you believe there are some scenarios where your methods or use of an e collar are not appropriate for training a canine? And if so what/when?

Thank you for your response
Here are some situations where I would not recommend an Ecollar.
  • If someone is not willing to spend the money to purchase a quality Ecollar.
  • If someone is not willing to read and follow the simple instructions that are on my website.
  • If someone does not have the coordination that allows them to tap a foot on the ground and to clap their hands together at the same time.

I've found that the common reasons that the anti Ecollar crowd gives, a fearful dog, a shy dog, an aggressive dog, etc., are actually dogs that benefit tremendously from proper use of the Ecollar. Due to the remote nature of the stimulation, such dogs do not associate the discomfort as coming from the trainer/owner and so, there's no conflict as there is with many other tools, including those using treats, toys, etc. I've come across dogs that bite their owners if they're not given the treat or the toy!

Some have told me that their dog has a medical condition such as epilepsy or a heart condition and that they've successfully trained their dog with an Ecollar using my methods. I think that they provide less stress than many tools/methods and so are perfect for these dogs.

If you have some specific situation in mind, please bring it to the discussion.
03-26-2015 08:09 PM
Gwenhwyfair
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip18 View Post
No prob..I'll try again later.
I'll send you one, then you can just reply and tell me all about it. I don't have you blocked or anything!
03-26-2015 01:32 PM
Baillif
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoanMcM View Post
Read your own post...it is excellent really...the dog has NOT LEARNED ANYTHING but to avoid the shock. The dog is not boundary trained which is what the owner wants.
The dog when it is boundary trained learns plenty more than that. When the training is done properly it learns that a warning or a stim will result if they go too close to the boundary flags. It also learns which direction it needs to escape if it is stimmed or hears or feels the warning tone or vibration. This kind of boundary training doesn't take long at all with an invisible fence if you know what you're doing.

Nothing in my post supports your ideas.

Just to nitpick.

When a dog is stimmed by a collar until it completes a desired behavior that is primarily under the realm of negative reinforcement. There is a positive punishment component to negative reinforcement (at the very beginning) but it is generally understood that under that circumstance it is negative reinforcement. Positive punishment in a purest sense occurs when a dog refuses or fails a known command or task is stimmed for it regardless of what they attempt to do to escape the behavior (including attempting to carry out the command again)
03-26-2015 12:17 PM
Chip18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwenhwyfair View Post
Really? I looked at PMs twice didn't get one from you?

Am I being a meanie? I hope not.

No prob..I'll try again later.
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