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Thread: Sit Means Sit - collar enforced training Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
03-03-2015 01:07 PM
sabledog3 The sit means sit guys around here are awesome! Unfortunately,I didn't have the money to train with them. They offered a great deal, but I just can't afford a trainer right now.

We have just started e collar work at home. Tell him "here" and buzz the page button. Still working on lead and have not had to use the stim yet.
03-03-2015 11:18 AM
sourdough44 I have the Dogtra 2300 NCP collar. I don't use it much, but no adverse issues. There are to many visions of frustrated owners taking it out on the helpless dog, which is nonsense here.

I knew a guy who had no problem with a stout stick but thought an ecollar was cruel. He now has an ecollar.

It's important to have a good 'page' or vibration feature. Of course one has to back up to training, the dog must be trained to know what is expected. One of the biggies is to come when called, in this area an ecollar is great. Our dog is off leash a lot, out and about. An ecollar is like a 200' leash.
02-23-2015 01:14 AM
newlie Newlie currently wears an e-collar but I have only pressed the button 3 or 4 times on a low setting. And it did work: After two years of working with him using other methods, he now has a pretty solid recall. I haven't used it anymore because it hasn't been necessary. He comes now when I call, even leaving off chasing the rabbits, and every time he does , I make a big deal out of it to further reinforce what he has learned.

Newlie's trainer was the one who recommended it and showed me how to work it. He told me that he didn't recommend it for a lot of people, that his feeling was that they would take a little too much pleasure in using it. That being said, the list of people who I would allow to use an e-color on my dog is small: Other than me, it would only be his trainer.

I don't know anything about this sit means sit training, myself, although it doesn't sound good from the reviews. But I will say that I am not going to turn over my dog to anyone for a period of weeks and give them carte blanche to do whatever they want with my dog. No way, no how.
02-22-2015 07:19 PM
Persinette My thoughts on eCollars: they have only 2 places in a training program, and only for certain dogs and certain people with the self-control and experience use them properly.

I don't think a dog should ever be corrected and no compulsion used in the primary training phase of training. Too often, the dog makes a legitimate mistake or is simply confused on what the handler is asking for when they are learning something and they get corrected. This makes for a fearful dog too afraid to try new things in case they are corrected. They become more robotic and react to commands instead of thinking their way threw a problem.

When a dog has completely and thoroughly learned a command, i.e. sit or down or whatever, you have done proofing, then in some instances I think there is the potential for an eCollar.

For example, if I wanted my dog to Sitz faster, I would train for that--with a high value treat or toy--and only reward when the dog complies lightening fast. If the dog is distracted, I would do stimulus training where we start from far away from the distraction and reward for attention/compliance then slowly approach until the dog can work through the distraction. For most dogs I believe this is enough. Punishment is the lack reward/play. However, for some dogs, there may be a certain stimulus that not even the most high value reward can compete with. For these dogs I think an eCollar or prong collar correction may be warranted. Only, though, when he dog has been proofed and you know they know what you area asking for and they are simply refusing to comply. I would use sparingly.

The other instance I think an eCollar could have merit is in self-satisifying behaviors. I subscribe to the notion that most GSD have some degree of OCD and that should be focused on us when they are young through tug/treats/etc. so we become their primary source of entertainment. If a dog engages in negative self-satisfying like chasing birds, their tail, or barking at the fence incessantly, I think not only can these behaviors become hard habits to break because they have discovered they are fun/get some form of satisfaction from them, but some of there drive/attention is taken off of you as the 'fun' person. If, using stimulus training an redirection, these behaviors can't be broken relatively quickly, I think an eCollar could be used to nip the problem in the start.

Generally speaking though, I subscribe he marker/reward based training for almost any behavior. Especially for high drive dogs, I think the denial of a reward is a punishment in and of itself. I really like the ideas discussed in Ivan Balabanov's Advanced Schutzhund and the idea of Ultimate Punishment, i.e. reward denial, to make dogs more active thinkers on and off the field. His method involves no use of compulsion even with the most advanced and complicated of training tasks. That said, again, certain behaviors need to have a consequence if they are harmful to the dog or others, but only when he dog already knows what is being ask is just refusing.
02-22-2015 06:49 PM
Baillif I don't know personally about what SMS does specifically but OLK9 teaches pretty much the same way. Leash pressure plus low level stim and fade out the leash. In theory anyway.
Maybe they get a little impatient and turn up the juice sometimes.
02-22-2015 06:34 PM
VTGirlT Lou Castle's method of e-collar is not only humane but also extremely effective.

E-collar work, when used correctly, opens up a whole new wave of communication and reassurance for me to my dog Zelda.

Because i did not trust myself using the e-collar without someone helping me right next to me physically, i ended up using a dog trainer, who has similar style to Lou Castle, using low stim levels, guiding the dog and not making them guess what you want them to do, and constant communication.

She is not fearful of me, the collar, the stim levels i use, etc. Its merely communication.

As a fear aggressive dog to strangers, and a high prey drive dog, she HAS to have reliable recall.

You would never be able to tell when i use or dont use the e-collar on her. The other day i forgot to turn her collar on, and everything i asked her to do was perfect i had no idea it wasn't on and apparently it didnt matter to her either, and she always has so much fun off leash! The rush of the release seems to bring her joy in itself, in fact she loves to come in and check up on me all the time now, for a scratch and then prances off with joy, and then if i ask her sit randomly, she will do it immediately, usually intensely waiting for my release, after which she returns to her prancing around with joy in the snow!

Not sure if this will help, but my first session with an e-collar trainer and some updates,
02-22-2015 04:18 PM
Baillif E collars don't cause environmental fears. Bad trainers who don't know how to clarify why a dog is being corrected do.

Any correction no matter what it comes from prong collar/flat collar/slip collar/stick/choke collar/your foot/ your hand/throwing your keys at the dog has the potential to cause a superstition.

That potential rises based on differences in a few different factors like novelty of the device used to punish or the environment you are in, intensity of stimulus, timing(bad timing obviously means higher chance of superstition), prior experience, whether or not you use an appropriate procedure that teaches a dog clearly, temperament of the dog and probably a few others I am blanking on at this moment.

The tool isn't the issue. It is always the trainer.

And lets say your dog does end up with a superstition of something in the environment because of an e collar correction. Just show him it isn't true. Dogs go through periods of confusion when you are teaching and especially when you use corrections. They get over it once they understand. If you don't leave them in that confused state and continue to teach until they understand.

That being said. Most SMS trainers are probably crap and don't even really know what I just typed above. You can find someone better that is cheaper or at a similar price. ****, even Ivan Balabanov's pet training courses are cheaper than SMS. Jason Davis is great too he's in Florida as well.
02-22-2015 02:53 PM
erik Thats because the shock collars cause a lot of environmental fears. Especially if they are being overused, the dog never really understands whats going on. This is why this franchises training model is so negative. Unfortunately at the surface they look great in their videos and demos. People are so distracted by their desire to get their dogs trained quick and easy, that they don't take the time to research, as well as see how this quick and easy can actually be more harmful in the long run.
01-20-2013 11:30 PM
pancake I also asked this and because of their heavy marketing it seems this question comes up every now and then. I came to the conclusion (as many others did) that Sit means sit is very very bad news. What they do is not dog training but a simple video game like routine. Their philosophy is that you need the remote collar on them at all time. Well, if that's the case I guess I can just give my dog a shock for everything I don't want it to do. And the more it does it, the harder I shock it. Pretty easy.
I saw it and was impressed at what was done in 10 minutes but it was too good to be true. They have no regard for address development of superstitious behavior, conditioning, etc. It's mostly remote collar work done wrong.

Originally Posted by onyx'girl View Post
I would go with Lou's instruction, if given the choice.
I would second this. Also, Michael Ellis' (at Leerburg) remote collar concepts are very similar if not the same to Lou's method. Low stims on leash for guidance that teaches the dog to turn pressure off by coming towards you. (For recall work). Using e-collars as a form of punishment for all activities is not recommended. They have their place and I think that the best place for e collars done correctly with low stim is the recall.
01-16-2013 05:41 PM
Nickyb Big money for not a whole lot. Save your money and invest in an advanced obedience class.
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