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Thread: Taking the value out of a dog Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
01-18-2013 03:02 PM
blackshep I think there should be a goal in mind. Sorry folks, that I've derailed this thread somewhat, and this is my last post here, because I think I've said what I wanted to say.

But I think if you're breeding a working line dog (and I've been using Schutz. as an example because that is the direction it seemed to have taken as far as the "value" of the dog decreasing if it's altered)

If you're breeding a working line dog, I still think you have goals in mind. Sound of body and mind. The dogs should be biddable etc.

Of course some dogs in the litter will be harder and some will be softer, but none should be quitters, weak nerved, nervous etc.

This is all I mean by breeding the best to the best. And showline people probably hate the WL conformation and vice versa. So to a certain degree, the dogs are already split into different "discliplines" where people are looking for different qualities in the animals they breed.

A person who wants a couch potato, would not want a GSD. That would not be a good trait in working lines. That is the type of thing I'm talking about.

I'm sorry I'm using horses as my examples, because that is what I know best, but I think we can all agree tat if you take lesser quality, ill tempered animals and breed them, the odds are not in our favour to get the next world champion.

So if you own one of those, even if you love them more than life, I think you're doing the breed a favour by removing them from there gene pool, because they are not good examples of the breed.
01-18-2013 02:55 PM
Jack's Dad
Quote:
Originally Posted by martemchik View Post
Big boo boo you just made on this forum...the common belief is that everyone should be purchasing dogs from people that do Schutzhund and use it as a breed test. Since not all of their puppies are "sport" worthy, some should go to pet homes. This is where the general population should get their puppies. And if you can't handle a medium drive dog, don't get a GSD.

^I have learned this from a super long thread when ASL and anything that doesn't resemble a working line was attacked to be a subpar dog and should never be bred just because the market calls for "family friendly" GSDs that don't need to be worked on a daily basis.

01-18-2013 02:47 PM
martemchik
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshep View Post
Nope. lets face it. No matter what you're breeding there's a lot of luck too. But you set yourself up for success, as best you can. If you're into schutzhund, you're not really breeding for the pet market. Most of those dogs are too much dog for the average person.
Big boo boo you just made on this forum...the common belief is that everyone should be purchasing dogs from people that do Schutzhund and use it as a breed test. Since not all of their puppies are "sport" worthy, some should go to pet homes. This is where the general population should get their puppies. And if you can't handle a medium drive dog, don't get a GSD.

^I have learned this from a super long thread when ASL and anything that doesn't resemble a working line was attacked to be a subpar dog and should never be bred just because the market calls for "family friendly" GSDs that don't need to be worked on a daily basis.
01-18-2013 02:39 PM
Jack's Dad [QUOTE=blackshep;2765233]Nope. lets face it. No matter what you're breeding there's a lot of luck too. But you set yourself up for success, as best you can. If you're into schutzhund, you're not really breeding for the pet market. Most of those dogs are too much dog for the average person.


Your quote above would be a great topic for another thread. Since Schutzhund folks are miniscule compared to the pet population how many breeders could survive if only a select few could handle their sport dogs?
01-18-2013 02:31 PM
blackshep Nope. lets face it. No matter what you're breeding there's a lot of luck too. But you set yourself up for success, as best you can. If you're into schutzhund, you're not really breeding for the pet market. Most of those dogs are too much dog for the average person.

I'm just saying, if I had an animal who was weak nerved, bad tempered, unsound etc etc, I would not be breeding it just because it had balls.

ETA: the problem with racehorses is that they don't have the same breed inspections, as say the warmbloods and the results speak for themselves.
01-18-2013 02:25 PM
Jack's Dad
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshep View Post
Ok, well we're talking apples to oranges, dogs vs. handlers. I thought you meant a dog that couldn't handle the higher levels, should be bred.

You're wrong about the horse industry though, there's a huge number of horses breeding, BYB's and it's not always so highly regulated, depending on the breed. But that's why so many horses end up at the knackers, and for dogs, at the pound.

I just think with breeding any animal, that you should only breeding the best. I do think it should be more limited in what is allowed to breed, that is NOT a bad thing. It doesn't mean it's cut back so much that you lose the genetic diversity, I mean horses aren't all inbred. But it does mean the breed is improving all the time.

That's how I personally think all breeding should be done. There should be a goal and a purpose. Weaknesses should be looked at and bred to improve upon them.

Just my two cents, for what they're worth. About $0.02
I'm not a breeder but what I've learned is it is nowhere near as simple as throwing the (best) together. Champion race horses are famous for not producing champions, with a few exceptions.

You have to consider the pluses and minuses of each individual animal along with their background for generations. It's beyond me but that is the way I understand it. Wish it were simpler. My $0.02.

I'm with Cassidy's Mom on the value issue and where I would want my dogs to go. Loving, caring home. No money involved.
01-18-2013 02:24 PM
Liesje I've been on a horse once in my life so I have trouble evaluating dogs or accepting that a dog's breed-worthiness is called into question based on the horse world...
01-18-2013 02:20 PM
blackshep
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liesje View Post
Mediocre to who? As compared to what? I've seen a SchH3 national level dog that would *not* engage in protection when someone did a direct attack wearing a bite suit. I have a SchH1 dog that will never see a national championship but would *never* turn his back on a direct threat and fail to engage. The top level SchH dogs are just that, top level SchH dogs. If that's what you want, that's what you buy and breed. Everyone has a different idea of what dog is the "best". To me the "best" dog is a calm house pet that is safe around people he knows but fully able to step up and protect himself, his owners, and his property without being conditioned to do so or cue on equipment. The "best" dog can earn SchH titles because the instincts are there and the training is fairly straight forward, but doesn't have to be the world champion. The "best" dog can go from protection work to sleeping on the couch to visiting a classroom of kids. But to someone else the dog is "mediocre" because his SchH scores are mediocre, mid G to low SG.
I guess in the horse world, this is where we'd break things up into different disciplines, and test accordingly Ha ha
01-18-2013 02:11 PM
Liesje
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshep View Post

Why would you breed a mediocre dog?

But I don't see any benefit to breeding mid-level anything.
Mediocre to who? As compared to what? I've seen a SchH3 national level dog that would *not* engage in protection when someone did a direct attack wearing a bite suit. I have a SchH1 dog that will never see a national championship but would *never* turn his back on a direct threat and fail to engage. The top level SchH dogs are just that, top level SchH dogs. If that's what you want, that's what you buy and breed. Everyone has a different idea of what dog is the "best". To me the "best" dog is a calm house pet that is safe around people he knows but fully able to step up and protect himself, his owners, and his property without being conditioned to do so or cue on equipment. The "best" dog can earn SchH titles because the instincts are there and the training is fairly straight forward, but doesn't have to be the world champion. The "best" dog can go from protection work to sleeping on the couch to visiting a classroom of kids. But to someone else the dog is "mediocre" because his SchH scores are mediocre, mid G to low SG.
01-18-2013 02:07 PM
msvette2u
Quote:
You're wrong about the horse industry though, there's a huge number of horses breeding, BYB's and it's not always so highly regulated, depending on the breed. But that's why so many horses end up at the knackers, and for dogs, at the pound.
I was going to say...!
I know of a woman in the next town over, breeding horses up the ying yang just because she can. Minis, etc. they are all bred/overbred.
Sadly they end up at auctions and being sold by the pound for meat.
The horse overpopulation situation is humongous because everyone can and does breed them just because they can.
And there's even fewer good homes for them and with the cost of hay, many people drive them to the mountains and turn them loose.
It's horrendous, just as much or moreso than dog/cat overpopulation.
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