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Topic Review (Newest First)
01-04-2013 11:49 PM
selzer My initial post contained my concern for the puppies, particularly in them not receiving colostrum. And concern for the bitch as well. Growling and cowering and bristling is not normal behavior for whelping, so my thought was the bitch needs to be with someone who realizes she may be in trouble or at least terribly stressed.

Not angry or anything.
01-04-2013 11:22 PM
x11 selzer thanks for informative post. i was not trying to be disrespectful earlier in the thread, i do get a bit guardy when i think unjustified comments are being made about the breeders i respect and know are doing the right thing.

so hope you are not angry or anything at me.
01-04-2013 03:39 PM
selzer
Quote:
Originally Posted by x11 View Post
first time i heard of this, a friend had a planned breeding with a first time mother (gsd's of course). the mother dropped the pups all over the kennel and cowered in the corner of th kennel geting as far away as possible from them snarling and bristles up. she killed two pups instantly before anyone could react. the shocked owners removed all the pups and lucky in that neighbourhood there were two pet dogs with litters that took on the pups straight away without fuss while still caring for their own pups. the pups have been surrogated and getting bottle supplements.

the female has an incredibly good temperament other than this and has zero dog agression and has owners kids playing with her and climbing all over her every other day before this happened - what went wrong??
x11, this is really, really bazaar behavior. My initial post may have been a bit premature. "The mother dropped the pups all over the kennel and cowered in the corner of the kennel geting as far away as possible snarling and bristles up."

My picture is a kennel maybe 10' x 20' give or take, where the bitch is in there literally whelping (dropping) puppies all over the place. It sounds like she she totally freaked out. And was delivering the puppies in a kennel environment where there may be other dogs in other runs increasing her stress.

Whelping is terribly stressful on a bitch. I have been blessed with good dams, who care about every single puppy born. My very first thought was a c-section. Some bitches when they have a c-section do not realize these are her puppies, and the anesthetic wearing off is disorienting, and suddenly finding herself with a bunch of hairy little monsters might have been rather hairy. But then I saw dropping them all over the place -- I guess I am just thinking that we are a lot more hands on when it comes to whelping litters. We do not let them drop them all over the place. We have a 4 foot square box, or a 4'x5' box, and we are right there. It is very hands on. But the emphasis is always not to stress the bitch, any more than she already is.

I usually pull the puppies out and put them in a box, either right in or right out of the 4' box, when she starts turning to have another puppy. It is a terribly wet and messy ordeal, and puppies must be kept dry and warm, so I put them in a box when she is turning and spewing water. But if she stops and starts paying attention to where that pup is, I just put it right back in with her. I will dry it off again when she is working on the next one. Keep stress levels down.

The idea of the dog doing this in the ordinary kennel run where the other dogs are running back and forth in their runs barking and being idiots -- they do when people are there and when stuff like this is going on, made me cringe.

But it can be worse than that, If she had her group of puppies and all of sudden started scattering them, and cowering in a corner growling and bristling and then killed a couple of them, I would be worried that something was seriously wrong with her, was this right after whelping them, or was this a day or two later. Could she have a serious infection. Bitches can kill their young if they feel seriously threatened, and having a stuck puppy or a retained puppy that is sickening her might cause this.

I guess we just don't have enough information.

It is common for people to suggest that a bitch not be left unattended with her pups until the umbilical cords drop off (a few days). Usually I stay right with a new mother as I cannot know that she is an excellent dam unless I go through a few days. But I have to sleep too, so I stay close and I do sleep if all is going well with her.

As for breeding this bitch again, my gut reaction is no. Even when I have a bitch develop a bit of a fever, I haven't had them attack and kill puppies. Again if it was a C-section, that could be a whole other story though. If she was terribly young, like 10-15 months old, maybe that played a part in it. But even puppies that have puppies usually do not act this extreme. If it wasn't a c-section, then I would say she has some wires crossed in her head.

The sire of the litter is of no consequence in this, and I am not sure why he is being mentioned at all.
01-04-2013 03:01 PM
cliffson1 Sometimes with a females first litter she is overwhelmed if the size is very large(like 9 pups or more). I had female years ago that her first litter at 2 1/2 years was 10 pups and she handled six well, but lost the rest. Rock solid temperament, but it appeared it was just too much at that time. A year later she had a litter of 9 and never had one lick of problem....she really needed to learn from the first experience. Not saying this is case here, just giving an example of what I have experienced.
01-04-2013 12:09 AM
Lauri & The Gang
Quote:
Originally Posted by x11 View Post
the sire of the pups is from one of the most prolific breeder of gsd in modern times
Prolific doesn't always mean good. I'm not saying that is the case with this breeder - just saying.

As for breeding the bitch again - these people were SERIOUSLY lucky that they could find other nursing bitches that would accept more puppies (many bitches won't).

Hand raising newborns is a 24/7 job. The pups need to be nursed every 2 hours and have their bottoms wiped with a warm, damp towel in order to stimulate them to pee and poop. If you get some that don't take to nursing on bottles easily you need to tube feed them.

Let's say it takes 15 - 20 minutes to nurse a puppy, burp it, stimulate it to potty, clean it up, check it's weight and put it back with the others. If you have 8 puppies - that's a total of 2 hours worth of work. Just as you finish with one round of nursings you need to start again.
01-03-2013 11:43 PM
carmspack This female should never be bred again.

Maternal instinct is inhereted by the daughters .
I have a female that has to be pulled out by the collar to leave the pups to take care of her own needs. After the pups are weaned and homed she will still fly down to the whelping room just to make absolutely sure they are not there. Super mother , as was her mother , her grandmother , great grandam , and now it is revealed so is her daughter.

--
01-03-2013 11:11 PM
Narny
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verivus View Post
REPHRASED: After learning the dam is a horrible mother to it's 1st litter, should she continue to be bred?


LOL


Ok so in my personal (uneducated about dogs in this manor) opinion I would breed the dog one more time. I would make sure I did the right thing and watched the bitch like a hawk but I would do it one more time as long as shes a REALLY good dog in every other aspect.
01-03-2013 11:01 PM
x11 gotcha, sorry about my interpretation of yr question.
01-03-2013 10:51 PM
Verivus
Quote:
Originally Posted by x11 View Post
will you know they are horrible mothers BEFORE they are bred??? if so how? the comment about prior history in the line i guess could be a clue, but lines get scattered around the country and outcrossed i would think to get this info easily.

the mother herself was born so i guess her mother and mothers mother....obviously reared at least one pup each without being too absurd??
Well I thought it was rather obvious that nobody would know they are bad mothers before being bred so I didn't feel the need to explain myself in detail, but if that's what you need so be it. Let me rephrase myself so everybody can understand.

REPHRASED: After learning the dam is a horrible mother to it's 1st litter, should she continue to be bred?

01-03-2013 10:21 PM
x11
Quote:
Originally Posted by x0emiroxy0x View Post
They are obviously backyard breeders and inexperienced ones at that. Selzer has more experience whelping than half the people I know....don't come on here for advice/questions than put down the person with the most experience and correct answer!

i am sure Selzer is big enough to speak for her/himself.

what you think is "obvious" or "correct" means little to me.

as far as you telling me what i can and can't do means even less.

have a nice day and a happy new year.
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