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Topic Review (Newest First)
01-03-2013 11:37 AM
Lakl Well, if someone starts a new thread, please post the link!
01-03-2013 11:26 AM
Freestep
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFGSSD View Post
So, unless I am way out of the loop here… Please show me the documented success in this task and where I can read about it in some kind of sanctioned GSD review. If you can in fact direct me to breeders who have accomplished this task in a solid line that brings the best in both worlds, I would LOVE to contact that breeder and purchase one of those pups. I would be interested in how they “did it” as it is a very noteworthy accomplishment. Can you or anyone else provide links to that information on here? As you said… this is information others should know about. So we should post it.
We might be talking about two different things here... I know several breeders who have bred service dogs; if you are breeding healthy, sound GSDs to the standard, it should be natural that some pups will find success working in that venue. But I think you are talking more specifically about crossing working and show bloodlines in order to create a "line" of service dogs. I was talking about creating service dogs period, regardless of bloodline--lots of breeders have done that. Some breeders do cross working and show lines and have had their dogs go on to succeed in many different working venues--SchH, SAR, herding, and service--but their breeding program is not about creating a line of *service* dogs per se... just proper GSDs with beauty, brains, and temperament.

Again, I hate to name names because I'm terrible with names and I don't want to leave anyone out, but I know that Julia Priest, Christine Kemper, Molly Graf, Carmspack, and others on and off the forum have bred dogs that went into service. Carmspack was breeding show x working litters back in the day. Molly Graf is breeding show x working, as well as someone else on the forum whose name I can't recall--I hope they pop into this conversation--I believe a working female with a show male.

Has anyone created a line of dogs that consistently look like show lines and work like working lines, that consistently go into service, and have they done it by crossing the two lines until their line is stable? That, I do not know. So if that is what you are talking about, you're right, it hasn't been acheived on a large scale. I know people are trying.

We should start a new thread on this subject, it's a good one!
01-03-2013 10:15 AM
SFGSSD
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakl View Post
I don't know anything about breeding, but Jinopo had a nice Working/Show cross stud that they used quite a bit.

VÝBORNÝ Zen z Jirkova dvora

He has been bred to both working and showline dams. Sadly, he passed last year from a stomach torsion, but they continue to use one of his sons, Orion, at stud.

One of his pups from a SL breeding.

Of course, I can't speak anything about their versatility in the working world. I just know of them and the kennel that has been breeding over 40 years.
Thank you for posting. I dont want to put you or the breeder on the spot, I do have some questions though... I will send them to you off line.
01-03-2013 10:02 AM
Whiteshepherds Terry thinks he's been met at the door by a gang of breeders when actually I think the only breeder really responding on this thread is Carmen. (apologies if I missed someone)

Seeing how he was only introducing himself wouldn't it make more sense to continue this conversation by having it on a more appropriate forum?
01-03-2013 09:03 AM
Lakl I don't know anything about breeding, but Jinopo had a nice Working/Show cross stud that they used quite a bit.



VÝBORNÝ Zen z Jirkova dvora



He has been bred to both working and showline dams. Sadly, he passed last year from a stomach torsion, but they continue to use one of his sons, Orion, at stud.



One of his pups from a SL breeding.


Of course, I can't speak anything about their versatility in the working world. I just know of them and the kennel that has been breeding over 40 years.
01-03-2013 01:55 AM
SFGSSD
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
many of us know Pia Blackwell through a genetics list ... she does not use show lines?
OK, I am sure PIA will appreciate the plug on her great dogs, but what was the point of pointing out that she was a working line breeder? Unlike some, I am not going to pick sides on Working or Show lines. The question was who these breeders were that pointed that out to me. I gave you a few names so, why did you not answer my previous question or even acknowledge it. Again, a pic from 1967 proves???
01-03-2013 01:35 AM
carmspack many of us know Pia Blackwell through a genetics list ... she does not use show lines? from here web site "
We choose to breed working line German Shepherds Dogs primarily out of west german working lines .
For the following reason .
A good German Shepherd should have drive ,desire, nerves, and temperament to do its work well but in no way should this mean that the dog is hyper,
can't calm down, is incapable of being a family dog or is unreliable , hectic or worse unpredictable. When a good balance is achieved by careful selection
of bloodlines and breeding stock the dog can and will work on the streets, sport fields with high enthusiasm ,drive
and desire to work under it's handler direction. Come home and relax and play with the kids .
Many people have the notion that working line dogs are harder to live with. I strongly disagree!!
I have worked and lived for many years with both lines. In the early to late 1980 one still could find
a good percentage of dogs out of "german show line " lineage and get a very good working dog
along with good nerve .
EXAMPLE ..
1998 Brevet Ringsport Champion V- rated Byron vom Rheinland ScHH3 ,HIC,Brevet ,KKL1 ,
This has changed drastically during the course of the last 15 years !
High percentage of "show line dogs lack the nerve strength and self-confidence , have issues with strange
environment and sadly much less capable of doing what the breed was intended for,
serve and work along mankind to achieve tasks that this breed is known and respected for throughout the world!!

Furthermore , the rear angulation of the German show line is becoming scary similar
to the American bred German Shepherd. Dogs with to much rear angulation will loose their function of agility .
Angulation is necessary but over angulation is not functional . In my opinion the working line puppy vs the show line puppy have two distinct differences in
behaviors . working line pups are more out going,like to explore,run right up to strangers and love to play! show line pups are more reserved have issues in
strange environment and rather stick to the side of their owner which is lack of confidence . Keep in mind that my observations are by percentage of dogs
and experience in each line. NOT BY INDIVIDUAL ANIMALS . I also learned through experience that the working lines are healthier and hardier.
















I opted to live work and base my breeding program on working line German Shepherds to maintain what the breed was created for by the founder of the
breed Max von Stephaniz- who said and I quote
keep my breed a working dog as I worked all my live to achieve that goal .

My breeding program started with west german conformation lines however to maintain a good percentage of workable and serviceable dogs primarly out
of show lines was not to my satisfaction. Today, with a good line up of dog's with excellent and proven working bloodlines and my passion for the breed .
I have reached a plateau in my breeding program I can be proud of .

Throughout my web pages you will notice dogs carrying the "vom Rheinland "name working in different venues .Again the versatility of the breed is of up
most importance so dogs can keep serving mankind in all types of different service department and are not limited to one or two tasks ! In addition vom
Rheinland Dogs are very pleasing to the eye with very good overall structure ,expression ,pigment and strength.

With so many lines of work, such as Police K-9, narcotic/explosive detection, guiding the blind, or special needs assistant dogs and also on the sport field
there is always a possibility, that the dog be exposed to something the handler/trainer did not prepare for. In such a case, the dog HAS to have nerve
strength to absorb and overcome the new situation without departing the task at hand .In the home a dog must have good nerve in order to tolerate a child
stumping over it , kids running through the door with friends in tow ,a dog with good nerve and character can judge a situation .

Special mention in this paragraph to Cole vom Rheinland deployed to ground zero ,9-11-01 , a task no man or beast could have
prepared for !!




With a well-bred, stable and sound German Shepherd, you can expect a dog you can be proud of .
Never dull or fragile in it's appearance






vom Rheinland can provide you with a German Shepherd the way he was meant to be!! Loyal,intelligent,strong ,confident ,good
natured ,versatile and a pleasure to the eye .





Pia M. Blackwell

vom Rheinland German Shepherds




Byron vom Rheinland



over angulation

extreme over angulation
american line

very good -normal angulation
west german working line

01-03-2013 01:14 AM
SFGSSD
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
"
Quote:

In other words no answers .

Oh... I got an answer but your not going to like it

Seems a bit of a hybrid mess. If you are a producer for working dogs then you have one concern one responsiblity and that is producing dogs that perform to the highest standards of whatever purpose they are to be used.
Not some personal indulgence about VA's and BSP in one dog , neither which has any bearing on work-function ---not for guide, therapy-assistance, police .

Here we go... Dig in good now

"When I talk to other breeders about what I would like to do when I decided to move forward with my father’s theory’s in a breeding program, the most common response I get from VERY experienced breeders is "Good luck, "Please finish the sentence... I said ""Good luck, it would be nice if that does surface in a consistent line. A lot have attempted it and failed, some CLAIM to have "done it" when in fact they are making claims that are the furthest thing from the truth."

so who are these very experienced breeders ?

Joe Testa, (knew my father well in the military... enough said) Pia Blackwell, (Please tell me you know who she is) Joe Burger (He has been importing and breeding working and show line GSD’s for about 50 years.)


1967 German Seiger
Ch. Bodo v. Lierberg ROM, SchH III, FH, K
kl 1, CACIB

1967 German Sgr. Ch. Bodo v. Lierberg ROM, SchH III, FH, KKL1, CACIB


Breeder: K. Klug; Mulheim/Ruhr
Owner: Mr. Erich Renner
Born: March 16th, 1962

producer of guide dogs
OK, maybe I am a bit overtired and I am missing your point. Please explain to me how posting a pic from 1967 proves that what I am attempting exists today?
01-03-2013 12:25 AM
carmspack "
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freestep
What aspects of temperament does the show line have that the working line lacks? I know you wanted to take this to PM, but public discussion helps everyone learn. There are a lot of newbies and other interested folk here researching the breed.

[/FONT][/SIZE]
While I appreciate your interest in my views in this regard I do not care to answer another question that potentially has a lot of room for debate at this time. I am sorry but I work 12+ hours a day and do not have time to keep up with a huge debate publicly.
__________________


In other words no answers .

Seems a bit of a hybrid mess. If you are a producer for working dogs then you have one concern one responsiblity and that is producing dogs that perform to the highest standards of whatever purpose they are to be used.
Not some personal indulgence about VA's and BSP in one dog , neither which has any bearing on work-function ---not for guide, therapy-assistance, police .

"When I talk to other breeders about what I would like to do when I decided to move forward with my father’s theory’s in a breeding program, the most common response I get from VERY experienced breeders is "Good luck, "

so who are these very experienced breeders ?


1967 German Seiger
Ch. Bodo v. Lierberg ROM, SchH III, FH, K
kl 1, CACIB
1967 German Sgr. Ch. Bodo v. Lierberg ROM, SchH III, FH, KKL1, CACIB

Breeder: K. Klug; Mulheim/Ruhr
Owner: Mr. Erich Renner
Born: March 16th, 1962

producer of guide dogs

01-02-2013 11:49 PM
SFGSSD
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneforce View Post
Welcome Aboard!!
Hi Jerry,

Thanks for the Welcome!
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