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Thread: Big red flags on the Breeder we got our dog from? Reply to Thread
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  Topic Review (Newest First)
12-12-2012 07:30 PM
onyx'girl I think any thread will take some turns and we all learn from's all good!

I agree with you Diane, what good is an excellent hip rated dog if you can't do anything with it due to temperament?
12-12-2012 07:20 PM
SchutzenWoof Sorry folks, I didn't intend to start Hip Debate 2012 with my thread. But! It is all very informative to me, so thanks!!!!!
12-12-2012 06:45 PM
JakodaCD OA I would MUCH rather have a dog with fair/borderline hips and a GOOD temp than one with excellent hips and rotten temp

When I got Dodge some were rather mortified that I was getting a dog out of a "Fair" sire..well Fair IS passing, (mom was good)

Dodge ended up going Fair, but so what He had an excellent temperament, bomb proof dog which was what I wanted in the end..

I , like anyone else want good hips on my dogs (and dogs I get puppies out of), but passing is passing, not hung up on the rating here either
12-12-2012 03:55 PM
cliffson1 Carmen, some of us have been trying to educate people on Dr. Schnelle's views for decades, but the new age experts have made hips more important than the dog. Thanks for the info!
12-12-2012 01:38 PM
GrammaD PennHip would run me $600 while OFA will be $160 for both hips and elbows. My regular vet can do OFAs quite well but I'd have to go to a different clinic for PennHip. A friend of mine, she breeds, pays over $500 for her OFAs! She likes to go to a specific vet with a good reputation for his skills. But if I were her I'd switch to Pennhip since the costs are close to the same.
12-12-2012 11:34 AM
Liesje Yeah, I mean x-rays cost me about $120 either way, but OFA is $40 and then $5 to get the films returned. I don't have to send in any paperwork and I get my x-rays back. SV a-stamps are another $130 or something like that, I do NOT get any x-rays back, and I have to send in all my dog's papers and be without them for 2-3 months. I don't think either rating system is really comparable to PenHIP, so I do OFA.
12-12-2012 10:56 AM
GrammaD $$$$ *sigh*

I really don't know how good breeders do it.
12-12-2012 10:18 AM
Originally Posted by GrammaD View Post
I like concept of the breed value system and in my pie in the sky dream world we'd utilize PennHip in the process.

But can you even imagine breeders in the US submitting to this level of regulation? And what it would take to gear up PennHip to handle the volume?

I am not in the know enough to know whether the past decade + of ZW has reduced the incidence of HD- do you know?
No idea on the last question, but a lot of people in the US do use it. The dog I just sold has a ZW score (his own, not just the average of the parents) because I submitted his x-rays to the SV. I would like to send in my other dog but right now it's cost-prohibitive (getting *another* set of x-rays done plus the cost of the a-stamp which is like $130 plus being without his papers for another 3 months) so I'm watching the scores of his relatives and how they are producing.
12-12-2012 09:27 AM
carmspack I was going through some of the "antique" German Shepherd dog Reviews I am sending to Bethany and discovered an article in one of the late 70's issues , written by Gary Schnelle , who you may recognize as one of the early OFA orthopedic specialists who promoted the x-ray and evaluation scheme. Gary Schnelle actually "discovered" hip problems in the 1940's when x-ray technology became available

He said many things among which is that hips are only one consideration . A dog with excellent hips and poor temperament is a worse choice then a dog with borderline hips and ideal temperament (paraphrased). He said that a dog with exellent hips being the only representative with this grade , the littermates, sire and dam being in the suspicious to frank dysplastic range is a worse choice (looks good on paper though!) than a dog with fair (which is not dysplastic but a rating of hips which will pass ofa cert) and suspicious (borderline) but with nothing beyond that in the "kin" . You have to look at pedigree depth , not the individual .
He also said there are more dogs euthanized for temperamental problems then need be for hips. The Reviews are interesting in a historical way because month by month you can see the issue of hips being tackled and x-raying being proposed as a useful tool in breeding selection.
12-12-2012 08:27 AM
cliffson1 HELLO, these hip/elbow issues are important, but first you have to have an accurate understanding of the issue to determine what you will live with in making breeding decisions.
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