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Topic Review (Newest First)
12-07-2012 11:12 AM
LouCastle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear L View Post
Does that mean dogs that live with cats won't chase wildlife?
I WISH! Lol. No, unfortunately having a non-prey cat in the home, has nothing to do with it. Most dogs, especially if the animal is introduced when the dog is a puppy, will accept other family animals. But they usually don't generalize to outside cats or other animals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear L View Post
My concern is ... not sure.... just want to think it thru since it involves my dog changing her perception about things. Before I just want her perception to be listening to whatever I say, so if I say no chase or abandon chase, she must comply. Your way, correct me freely if I'm stating it wrong, is teaching the dog to be fearful to chase.
I’m hereby correcting you. lol. If this was done at high levels of stim it WOULD create a fear of the chase and probably of the prey animal as well. Going back to the snake proofing model, there you want (and when it's done properly, you get) a dog that is AFRAID of the snake because he "bites" from a distance. But using low level stim the dogs don't become afraid of either the chase or the prey animal. In the snake model, you want the dog to RUN LIKE HECK from a snake. The cost of not doing so can be a slow agonizing death. In the crittering model you just want the dog not to start the chase.

Typically, the dogs see the prey animal and go right back to whatever they were doing. There's no avoidance with this system.

The method was developed to stop police dogs from chasing cats during yard-to-yard searches. If it resulted in the dogs fearing the cats, they might refuse to go into back yards where cat odor was present. In the urban environment, that's problaby just about every back yard out there. Either a cat lives there or has wandered through in the past several hours. WORSE, the dog might go into the back yard, and LOOK LIKE he was searching, fooling his handler and perhaps missing a crook that was hiding there, because he was so distracted by the chance of getting slammed by a shock.
12-07-2012 11:10 AM
LouCastle
Quote:
Originally Posted by lone Ranger View Post
Never thought of the fence charger. and I have several battery operated ones for horses but I am afraid they might be too strong.
I can guarantee that they'll hurt like heck! But that's the idea behind the training. Since you're working against a drive and the cost of a mistake, is the dog's life, you have to make a lasting impression at the outset and throughout the dog's life. Remember though, that I strongly recommend AGAINST doing this sort of training for several reasons. One is that it hurts the dogs, and I hate doing that. I will do so to save a life, but the threat from this kind of danger is more imagined than real. That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, just that it's much more rare than real.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lone Ranger View Post
Not sure how I go with burying the fence charge wire, it would have to be moved to different locations and I am still concerned about their experience leading to a lack of confidence? You have feelings about that and what you would do?
You only need to bury the wire for about the last 5' of it's length. You only want the end sticking up enough to avoid contact with any vegetation so it doesnít short out. Then put a piece of food on it so that it won't fall off or be knocked off by the wind or the dog running by and hitting it. If it's off the wire, and the dog gets it, he'll gamble for the rest of his life, getting shocked needlessly because you messed up the training. IT ONLY TAKES ONE ERROR TO MAKE YOUR DOG A GAMBLER! Another reason that I don't recommend this kind of training.

Since the dog can clearly make the association between his action and the shock, he knows what causes it, and how to avoid it, and it doesn't affect their confidence. That happens when the stim seems to be random and the dog doesn't know what caused, of how to make it stop.
12-07-2012 08:08 AM
jocoyn I used Lou's way for stopping my dog from chasing game and I don't think there was any fear involved, unlike who knows what is going on with the high stim method.

The stim was at a very low level. After a couple of sessions with a chicken and a goat, it broke her concentration and the whole chase sequence before it started. Later she would still sense a prey animal in the woods [and yes, you learn to read the dog it is different than sensing another predator!] and you could see the interest but she would shut herself off before making a decision to chase. Now she did not have any nerve issues (at least that I knew about, she was a little DA) and Lou needs to address that, but what I saw was a dog who was very clear headed and making the right decision without my input.

I think they learn to accept the family cat etc. {well she was so bad I still did not trust her with them unless I was right there - no sense tempting the fates} and anything in the family is still different than anything "out there"
12-07-2012 12:40 AM
Bear L
Quote:
Originally Posted by LouCastle View Post
Bear L I'd suggest that you try using a cat first. They've much easier to get than deer and many dogs will generalize to the deer if you use the cat.

What are you thinking about regarding how it changes how a dog views critters?
Does that mean dogs that live with cats won't chase wildlife?

My concern is ... not sure.... just want to think it thru since it involves my dog changing her perception about things. Before I just want her perception to be listening to whatever I say, so if I say no chase or abandon chase, she must comply. Your way, correct me freely if I'm stating it wrong, is teaching the dog to be fearful to chase. Fear can be good since it's necessary for survival but my dog is genetically weak nerved already so I try to grow her confidence wherever I can thus am more cautious about this type of perception change. Advise where my logic is flawed.
12-07-2012 12:30 AM
lone Ranger Wow Lou, on this site.. I have already visited yours, you come highly recommended.. I may be looking into some training help from you when the pup is about a year old...

Never thought of the fence charger. and I have several battery operated ones for horses but I am afraid they might be too strong. My dogs soon learn the wire fences bite them in the bum. They start out going under the wire, but soon are bit by the tail up!! Now after a few big yelps they only go throught the bars of the gates, never under the wire fences. They will actually run down to a gate and come back the other side...

Not sure how I go with burying the fence charge wire, it would have to be moved to different locations and I am still concerned about their experience leading to a lack of confidence? You have feelings about that and what you would do?

Kind regards from Australia
12-07-2012 12:01 AM
LouCastle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskeg View Post
I don't have much to add, but if this were me living where there is a high likelihood my dogs could encounter poisonous bait- I would not use Lou Castle's low-stim method (although his training protocols are highly recommended for other behaviors) and would simply blast the dog at a fairly high jolt- enough for a yelp- when he/she even thinks about sniffing or eating food on the ground. I would not say a command, I would act like I didn't know what happened. I would train my dogs to only eat food in their bowl or that I give to them by hand. I would never throw treats on the ground for them and would not allow them to eat treats that fell on the ground.
I don't suggest that anyone use low stim methods for poison proofing. I think that the actual need for this is far less than the perceived need. This kind of work need the highest level that an Ecollar has, in fact, I'd recommend going to a fence charger for the work, they're much more powerful. Also, you need to constantly leave food bait on live wires scattered around the yard, changing their location and the type of bait regularly.

And even then, a hungry dog may decide to take the chance. It's notable that the dogs that guard POTUS are not poison proofed.
12-07-2012 12:01 AM
LouCastle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear L View Post
That is interesting. I just read it. Game Chasing (Crittering)

Wonder where I can rent a deer around here.

I've been doing it a bit differently. If I can call her off before the chase, I don't correct. If she doesn't heed, then I correct. Lou's way seems like I should make it unpleasant period, for her to even consider it. That to me is changing how the dog think completely about critters. Which... I feel is something I've to process a bit more.
First, thanks to those who have mentioned my name, methods and linked to my site. I truly appreciate it.

Bear L I'd suggest that you try using a cat first. They've much easier to get than deer and many dogs will generalize to the deer if you use the cat. Some dogs might need a button press or two, if they come across a deer, but that takes care of most of them. BUT if you DO need a deer (It's very rare that a dog needs one) do a search on Google for "deer farm California" and several of them will come up. These are usually farms where they raise deer for venison for the commercial market. Often these places have a petting zoo and, if you explain what you need and tell them that they'll probably be saving a wild deer's life, they'll help out, for a fee of course. Iím told that a few SAR groups do this annually.

Around this time of year, in a few weeks actually, some shopping centers will have "Santa's reindeer" in their parking lots and that's another place you might be able to rent a deer.

What are you thinking about regarding how it changes how a dog views critters?
12-06-2012 11:12 PM
Lauri & The Gang
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskeg View Post
I would train my dogs to only eat food in their bowl or that I give to them by hand.
You want to be careful with teaching a dog to only eat from your hand. What if something happens to you and you have to rely on someone else to care for the dog? They might just starve themselves to death.

Eating only from their bowl is fine.
12-06-2012 10:36 PM
lone Ranger All good Muskeg,

I want to add one clarification. When I baited up the yard, I stood peeking out from a hidden curtain window. The JOLT came from the bait when he went to pick it up. It is very important that I stayed totally hidden. I started with a good jolt and he actually dropped the bait out of his mouth.. After maybe half dozen sessions the end product was him barking at it about a meter in ALARM function until I came out.

The shock never comes from you, it has to come from the object you are adversion training to.. A random bait if touched BITES THE HECK OUT OF YOU!!!! Then they learn it is naturally to be avoided... It has been many years, but I think I used a med-high stimulation to get a bit of a yelp out of him.

I don't know another way, and only worried about undermining personal confidence in my new pup coming. But even that is better than dead.. I will only do it at one to two years old.. I am still looking for a better way... /was hoping someone could tell a training regime to accomplish it without the e-collar... All the Training types I have seen, worked with the Handler present, they soon learned not to touch it.. But when on their own and the Handler gone? It is as if they thought it must be OK...

BTW, am going to Alaska next year in July for my 61st Birthday to try Trophy Rainbow Trout and Salmon fishing... Never done fly fishing. Catch and release program, guided, expensive but what the heck, 5 days in the remote rivers. Your scenery should be so devastatingly beautiful, the fish will not matter much A week at Cheyenne Frontier Days in Wyoming, then up to Alaska. Only wish my new pup could come.. The wolves in the wild are what caught me up into GSDs... "Dances With Wolves" ever since then I am hung up. I am so into them, I am going to Yellowstone in January for 10 days, 2 and a half weeks from Australia all up, to go into the snow bound and closed park by SnowCat to see the wolf packs in action.. 98 Wolves monitored in the park, in ten packs, and pretty much the only time you can see them is around the thermal events where the animals gather in dead of winter. Something like 300 kills a year, last count 90% elk (they have good taste), 13 Bison, dozen or so deer, and odd other like a coyote... It will be a huge experience even if I do not get too close to the wolves. Four days by Snowcat looking, four days by snowmobile, two days open to learn cross country skiing... You must see a lot of them living in Alaska.... !!!!!!!

Best regards from Australia, only dingos and foxes, a few deer, tons of rabbits, and millions of giant hoppers, heh he...
12-06-2012 09:09 PM
Muskeg I don't have much to add, but if this were me living where there is a high likelihood my dogs could encounter poisonous bait- I would not use Lou Castle's low-stim method (although his training protocols are highly recommended for other behaviors) and would simply blast the dog at a fairly high jolt- enough for a yelp- when he/she even thinks about sniffing or eating food on the ground. I would not say a command, I would act like I didn't know what happened. I would train my dogs to only eat food in their bowl or that I give to them by hand. I would never throw treats on the ground for them and would not allow them to eat treats that fell on the ground.

This is life and death. It's something the dogs are almost bound to encounter given your lifestyle. You may not always be there to tell the dog to leave it or to come or whatever. Dogs can eat something in an instant.

In the old days, the "dumb" dogs would simply not survive very long. The smart ones, or the ones that had a close and non deadly encounter with cars or bait may learn to leave it alone. You are creating that "close" encounter without the actual risk by using the e-collar to correct.

This is all just my opinion, and only my opinion. I would not normally advocate shocking a dog at a high level unless the dogs was trained and understood corrections but here you want the shock to be "coming" from the food or car or snake.
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