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Thread: Two dogs I really really like... wondering what would their offspring produce Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
11-19-2012 02:43 PM
BlackthornGSD Thanks Cliff.

I really do like the female's pedigree--and it was an interesting exercise to think about what I would look for in a stud dog on paper--and then, of course, you have to make sure the stud dog matches the female in front of you in terms of being a complementary match as far as temperament, health, drives, and conformation.
11-17-2012 09:50 PM
cliffson1 @ blackthorn
11-17-2012 02:46 PM
BlackthornGSD The sire--I wouldn't want to add any more Timmy/Troll) or Mink or even Orry. I'd also want to try to avoid adding more Fado(Harro). So, with that said, I've just eliminated almost all of the top sport names.

Look at his linebreeding and the backmassing:

8,6,6 - 7,8,8,7 Greif zum Lahntal
7 - 6,7,7,8,6..................................... in Afra vom Stoppenberger Land
8,8 - 8,8......................................... in V Racker vom Itztal

So where are you going to go with this breeding? It's either go back to more of the same or look hard for new lines--Czech (the ones that haven't been bred to Tom or Yoschy bloodlines), or some of the lesser known German working lines -- maybe Vox vd Kine (which still brings in Troll) or Sid vh Pixner (brings in Mink) or a dog like Ike v Donauvorstadt (who still goes back to Mink) who brings in some major non-Fero bloodlines as well as old herding bloodlines.

Or you find a counterbalancing dog with similar bloodlines--which can be hard to do and may not work. Or you breed back to a similar dog from similar bloodlines and get some great dogs, some odd ones, some outliers.

It weird, the more pedigrees you study, the more you realize how little diversity there is within a breed (by definition--that's what a dog breed is)--particularly within the subpools within the breed.

I really like the female's pedigree, but she's heavily back-massed on Grief, who was known for his sharpness:
I'd probably look to take her back to a dog who carries Chicco vd Fasanerie or another dog who goes back to Ilja or maybe some Maneiche bloodlines--watching the amount of Greif behind the stud dog.



She's also only got one line back to Fero, so that opens up a lot of the Fero bloodlines--but I'd prefer to avoid going back to any more Yoschy/Troll, and I'd avoid Troll Koerbelbach and no more Verwin to increase diversity and avoid quadrupling up on those traits she's already really strong in.
11-17-2012 11:49 AM
Freestep Just curious, what type of breeding would the pedigree gurus suggest with either of these dogs, to balance the drive and solidify the nerve?
11-17-2012 09:53 AM
vom Eisenherz
Quote:
Originally Posted by robk View Post
This is an interesting concept to ponder. You don't think the drive would moderate in the next generation with an outcrossing to a very stable medium drive partner?
Not necessarily. Genes don't always work like that. I have a bitch whose grandpups are almost exactly like her pups...some genes are more prepotent than others. You could also end up with "wildcards" in a litter to an outcross like that. You could get medium drive, iffy nerves, high aggression, or any combination. I prefer to breed balance whenever possible for that reason- less chance of wildcards if the parents are "type to type" breeding. I don't care what lines they are, but I want similar types that complement each other.
11-17-2012 09:30 AM
robk
Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffson1 View Post
More drive than I would like to see.......those lines are starting to bottleneck. Where would you breed the offspring of this breeding? Most out crosses would have problems absorbing the drive base o these pups. Just an observation.
This is an interesting concept to ponder. You don't think the drive would moderate in the next generation with an outcrossing to a very stable medium drive partner?
11-17-2012 08:59 AM
vom Eisenherz
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfstraum View Post
One of the big problems in breedings is that people breed dogs because they own both of them....dogs kept for sport in kennels are often NOT as understood as dogs who are lived with.....


Lee
Often forgotten but very true. I get a bit weary of the sport mantra "how do you know a dog if you didn't title it yourself?" while this simple fact that a dog living in a kennel, only removed for training and trialing, is far far too often not as thoroughly understood as a dog who is lived with 24/7 by the person considering the breeding. There are MANY weaknesses that can be easily masked by a halfway decent trainer and a lot of prey drive. Hang out in all live situations with a dog for a few years; you'll see quite a bit if you know what to look for.
11-17-2012 07:59 AM
cliffson1 More drive than I would like to see.......those lines are starting to bottleneck. Where would you breed the offspring of this breeding? Most out crosses would have problems absorbing the drive base o these pups. Just an observation.
11-17-2012 05:11 AM
björn Como rurdam have had plenty offspring here in sweden were he was located, supposedly a very strong dog and seems to have produced above average if looking at his offspring in mentaltests and the ones I have seen in sport.
11-16-2012 02:58 PM
Chris Wild I agree with the others, definitely this would be a combination completely lacking in balance and geared toward extreme dogs with iffy nerve strength.

As for being great for sport... maybe, maybe not. Plenty of drive for it and a bit of an "edge" to add flash and the appearance of seriousness in protection (though IMO not the correct kind of seriousness a GSD should have), but control could be a huge issue due to drive overloading the nerve strength in this pairing.

Some nice individual dogs in the pedigrees who can bring some very good things if bred right and matched well with other bloodlines to achieve balance. This particular pairing would not be one of those.
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