|12-02-2013 03:04 PM|
Thank you for your reply and assessment based on the circumstances. I just mentioned that it was out of working lines as it has siblings trained and actively working on police forces so it's out of dogs with good strong drives. I did mention the liability issue to her... and even told her about a person in my neighborhood who adopted an adult GSD with a bad attitude that ultimately ended up being ordered to be euthanisized after getting loose and attacking people in the area...
But I will try to pass on to her sound suggestions from anyone willing to offer them... it's not acceptable behavior to me especially out of a dog that technically is still a 'pup' at 13 mos of age.... just wanted other opinions/suggestions. thanks!
|12-02-2013 02:15 PM|
definitely fear and definitely not ok. a protective dog only watches people and doesnt bark at everything that moves. a protective dog is ok with 99% of the people it comes in contact with and will only bark and lunge and maybe bite if they feel the threat is real. my dog has barked his deep bark when startled but he's never lunged at anyone.
a fearful dog will huff and puff and bark and lunge and maybe bite at everything that its unsure about. if this behavior isnt corrected then the dog thinks that this is how i get rid of the danger. the dog thinks its ok to bite and lunge and bark because it works! it has nothing to do with working line. sounds like the dog needs lots of leadership and training. if your friend is proud of this behavior it'll just be a matter of time before she gets sued.
|12-02-2013 01:26 PM|
I'm not replying to the above, but just wanted to ask opinions on 'protective' behavior vs. shear aggressive behavior. My friend just told me, quite proudly, that her female gsd (who's barely over a year of age) charged off her couch and attacked her relative who walked in the front door unannounced for a visit. Guessing the dog has met him before, but according to my friend he is quite a big man and dislikes dogs....which she seems to feel is part of the reason he was attacked. SInce 6 mos of age the dog has shown unruly behavior....including getting 'kicked out' of pet training at a local pet store for uncontrollable barking and lunging at other dogs. I invited her to bring her pup to my basic obedience classes when she was 9 mos old as I just expected it was being an obnoxious ill mannered pup getting out of control. This is the lady's first gsd puppy (working line) and she had no experience with raising head strong pups , . Needless to say, obnoxious was an understatement. The 'pup' was clearly showing fierce aggression... barking, snarling and lunging at the end of the leash... wanting to get ahold of me. I wasn't sure if it was out of fear, or strait outright unadulterated aggression... and wasn't going to find out...So I suggested she take the dog back to her breeder/trainer for evaluation and she did. They gave her one lesson on basic obedience using a prong collar on her....she was supposed to take her back for continued work.,, which never happened.
I just think a year old pup shouldn't be displaying this kind of behavior ... and wonder if a child had walked thru the door unannounced if it would have done the same thing. Or was the 'pup' justified for attacking company walking in the door unannounced?? In general the pup has growled at people (friends) coming up to his 'mom' in the house in the past, and has also aggressively grabbed one other person by the arm it was near. I'm not in approval of this behavior in the least and wondered if others consider it 'ok'...
|11-12-2013 10:40 PM|
Thank you for your comment. It explains what's going on with my dog. Your description of the dog that shows fear is exactly what happens with my dog. She's a 13 month old female, and used to be very friendly with people and other dogs, but in the past 4 months or so I have not been able to relax while walking her downtown. Most of the times she's intent in sniffing around, more so than the passerbys, yet if she gets distracted from the smells, her behavior is exactly what you described. She has barked and jumped on people, lunging on the leash (which btw, to this day she has not yet accepted). She has been hyper from day one, and she has made a lot of progress. Used to bark at every little noise, day and night, now she only does when she actually hears people at the door, or deer, etc...
A couple of weeks ago, under a trainer suggestion, I started using the prong collar (which I've been so reluctant in trying it). Well, now on our walks, she reacts and jump on me, and nips at me. To make matters worse, now she does the same thing when I try to pet her, and a couple of times it escalated to the point that I had to log-roll her... (another bad situation I wish could have been avoided because I'm sure it didn't help her trust issues!). I had some difficulty bonding with her when I got her as a puppy. She never let me pet her and she always kept her distance from me at home. Eventually we took down some barriers, but I can still sense a big trust issue with her.
Any ideas or suggestions?
|11-10-2013 09:13 AM|
|redandgold||I assume if she's trying to run away from something, it's fear. If she is actively planting herself between me and a 6'8" 300 lb guy it is clearly not fear.|
|11-10-2013 06:29 AM|
I don't think anyone has really nailed it so far... so I'll give my 2 cents.
Being "Protective", in relation to how dog the majority of dog owners use it, is not a specific behaviour, or character trait that our dogs embody, rather it is a completely subjective term that we apply to our dogs - having a slightly different meaning to every individual who uses it;
"my dog barks at the postman, he's being protective"
"my dog chases foxes out of our backyward, she's so protective"
"I have a little yorky, that growls when you try to take his toy away, he's so cute when he's protective"
"defence of handler, in schutzhund, demonstrates a dog being protective of its handler"
One word is used throughout all these situations, yet each situation is different, and these dogs are reacting ways that arise from different drives - territorial defence, prey drive, resource guarding, learned behaviour/genuine pack defence
There are as many definitions of what we classify as protectiveness as there are shades of blue. But objectively speaking, to be protective is to "protect" something - to safeguard it against harm. That object could potentially be anything, from the dog itself, to a person, or an inanimate object.
Now to be fearful, is to fear something, to be "afraid" - for fear of harm to oneself.
The confusion arises from the fact that, dogs are often afraid of things that we normally would not consider it acceptable to traditionally be afraid of. Fear of heights, fast moving traffic, assault, someone aggressively yelling at you -these are all deemed acceptable, valid environmental stimuli that evoke a fear response. But things like garbage bins, vacuum cleaners, postmen - things that dogs are commonly afraid of - aren't considered acceptable.
I wanted to comment because I didn't think anyone was getting the point across strong enough - being fearful and being protective can be (depending on your definition) the same thing.
A dog cannot possibly be protective without perceiving something as threatening, whether that be a helper in schutzhund, making eye contact and cracking his whip or some jerk of an owner who takes away his dogs food bowl before he was done eating. The dog is afraid of losing something - a valuable resource, its life etc. So a protective behaviour begins with a fear response, all dogs experience some degree of fear and this is the basis of a dogs defence drive. In training a high level competition sport dog or police k9, this fear is significantly diminished as dominance and defence drives overlap > fight drive develops and like one poster in here said - you get something vaguely analogous to an "advanced play drive".
So, in essence, fearfulness and protectiveness are coming from the same place.
|11-10-2013 04:40 AM|
|Harry and Lola||Thanks for answering. Yes I also believe medical conditions play a part in temperament changes to a dog. I'm hoping his short episode of fear and aggression is something he can get over and go back to being a happy, confident, dominant boy. Your 'trust' comments were interesting, when I think about it, he really does need to learn to trust himself again. I also have to admit, I need to trust him again. Easier said than done, however I have been exposing him to various dogs (in dog parks - hate them but they have their uses) maybe about once a week and I muzzle him (this is for my comfort). First time he has ever been muzzled, but he accepts it as though it is not there and it really has been helping both of us to trust again. He seems much more calmer and is learning to greet other dogs properly.|
|11-09-2013 09:34 PM|
I really can't answer that question - there has been quite a few posts on the forum in the past like yours, where a previously confident, not afraid of anything dog, changed and started showing fearful and insecure behaviour. I've never seen it in a dog myself, but I'm sure it can happen. There would be too many variable regarding what was the root cause of the change in behaviour to know what the long-term outcome will be.
My guess (and just a guess), is that these changes in behaviour are rooted in health issues, where the ability to receive and process environmental stimuli has been altered, and now the dog lives in a confusing world that makes no sense to them anymore. Whether the dog would go back to being confident and outgoing when the health issues clear up, again, might depend on a number of things. His core temperament and nerve strength perhaps, or if the fearful behaviour is now ingrained behaviour - perhaps they don't trust their own senses anymore, and thus life in fear that their world is not reliable or predictable and they are full of self doubt.
I do believe that a medical condition can cause some deep personality and temperament changes in a dog - whether the the dog can get back to what it was before, I really don't know.
|11-09-2013 09:18 PM|
|Harry and Lola||
And if so, would he go back to original temperament naturally (on his own) or will be require confidence building and training from me?
|04-19-2013 01:16 AM|
|Lobobear44||O yeah Dante is fearless not afraid of anything!|
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