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Topic Review (Newest First)
03-29-2015 12:21 AM
TEZPUR1976 Point well taken. But as u said, this can only happen if experienced people are ready to mentor and encourage the prospective breeders, in spite of just saying " ethical breeding is not profitable".

Another point is that breeders must provide good value for money. Otherwise as u said demand supply gap will be filled up by mills.

This is something is not always happening in India. A friend of mine booked a pup from very good WGSL breeder, at a very very high price. When the pup was sent to him it was down on pasterns and was unable to run. The breeder simply told him "u should try to fix it".

There must be rational valuation of pups if the demand from puppy mills has to go down.
03-28-2015 02:57 PM
selzer
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEZPUR1976 View Post
IMO if a person is asking "Should I breed my dog" on internet, he/she is not ready for the responsibility.

Its like do I want to have a child?

It is something only the couple can and should decide after consulting experienced people.

In dog breeding the problem is a bit different, as one also has to find home for the pups.

If i ever have a really good female that I want to breed, I would go for partnership with an experienced breeder to arrange the stud and share the resonsibility of finding home for pups.

But even that is a lot of head ache. Why complicate my life? Better to enjoy the dog I have

Just because someone knows their dog is wonderful and breedworthy, and goes ahead and breeds without asking the question, doesn't make him any better than the fellow who does question it, or his dog any more worthy of breeding.

To the lurkers here, the message is quite clear, do not ask questions, because questions qualify you as unqualified. And that is really too bad.

We need people who have good dogs to breed them. Sorry, I know that isn't a popular stance, but breeders die every year. And the demand for pups is up, not down, like we tend to suggest all the time. We need breeders who are willing to go the extra mile for dogs, to buy dogs with good pedigrees, to train and try the dogs, to agonize over whether the dog is breedworthy, to do health checks on the dog, and then to go forward and breed the dogs. Because, the demand for puppies will be met, either by breeders who are new and trying to do the right thing, or by the puppy mills breeding another bitch and another bitch, and another. The only way to decrease the demand on puppy mills is to increase the supply from people like those on this forum who have decent dogs and want to try their hand at breeding.

These people will give the bitches a good life. They will try to use a good dog for their bitches. They will consult breeders they know. They will get help from experienced people for the whelping and raising of the puppies. They will try to find the best possible homes for the puppies.

What has changed in the past ten to twenty years, that our breed has taken such a dip both in temperament and health? One thing is that breeding should be left to professionals, and fewer people are breeding their dogs, and many, many more dogs are being mass produced, sold at pet stores, sold through the internet, dumped in shelters. And generally going to whoever can drop down enough cash on the right day with no questions asked.

So when someone asks, "should I breed my dog?" our response should not be, "well, if you are asking, no." Our response should be, "Lets see what your dog has, and what you should still accomplish before breeding him or her." I think we should take breeding back from the high volume breeders, and mentor some people who seem willing to learn what it takes.
03-28-2015 09:40 AM
TEZPUR1976 IMO if a person is asking "Should I breed my dog" on internet, he/she is not ready for the responsibility.

Its like do I want to have a child?

It is something only the couple can and should decide after consulting experienced people.

In dog breeding the problem is a bit different, as one also has to find home for the pups.

If i ever have a really good female that I want to breed, I would go for partnership with an experienced breeder to arrange the stud and share the resonsibility of finding home for pups.

But even that is a lot of head ache. Why complicate my life? Better to enjoy the dog I have
03-25-2015 02:50 PM
selzer
Quote:
Originally Posted by me, myself and I View Post
wow, I am impressed on how quick my post got responses... since I do now want to be an internet troll (fyi, best definition I have found for this is on wikipidia under "internet troll" Troll (Internet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)), I will not defend myself. doing such will end up in nothing short of that.
but I will say this; Selzer, I never once stated I know of a dog that someone did that with, or am considering doing it myself, actually I don't. I just know people, and unfortunately most people are greedy and corrupt, common sense tells me this, not only can happen, but most likely has. and I will further state, there is a possibility that if you breed, one of your breeding animals came from this kind of stock many generations back. maybe so far back it would be impossible to trace. same holds true for our family tree's, there is a possibility, somewhere in your ancestry, someone faked a document for whatever reason and there is an ancestor that is of a race or people not accepted to reproduce with your family, at the time, or a marriage that didn't happen when the marriage certificate states it did or whatever. now, that I do personally know of happening, the marriage certificate being faked part, I mean...
No, you did not state it. But I guess you were just sitting on a pebble by the water, playing your guitar, and thought, gee, if someone had a dog that they did not have breeding rights to, and it impregnated a bitch, and they knew of or had another dog, and could just claim that one was the pop, they would be free and clear, and all purebred dogs are just a joke because that is probably what everyone does anyway.

Going on a purebred dog site and saying the whole idea that dogs are purebred is a joke, is about as close to trolling as you can get without actually breaking board rules, and one of the ones, inciting riots, one of the mods around here could probably make a case for.

What you fail to recognize and what most of the people here do recognize is that we have to trust the breeder to a certain extent, and if we don't, we should not buy a puppy from them. Good breeders deal with people they know and trust, who have a reputation. They look at the dogs they are breeding to, know their backgrounds and see what that has carried forward in that dog, and in the dogs they produce. They look at dogs the dog produces. It matters who the dogs are behind our dogs. Someone just getting into the whole thing, who is just putting a dog with a bitch, might do a lot of things that are unethical or foolish, as with anything else. But most of us would recognize enough foolishness or questionmarks with such a one, that we will have dismissed them from our list of potential breeders long before we discuss pedigrees.
03-24-2015 01:38 PM
Liesje LOL so now we are comparing breeding dogs with shotgun weddings? I personally have pretty high standards for breeders and their breeding stock. I don't make decisions about whether I breed my dog (and with which females) based on such low standards. Just because some people are lazy and will breed anything with reproductive organs doesn't mean that all breeders must be really crappy people with no ethics or direction in their breeding program. I know our breed has some problems but I don't have that dire of a view.
03-24-2015 12:57 PM
gsdheeler WOW, Really??? You can keep your 2 cents.
03-24-2015 10:15 AM
me, myself and I wow, I am impressed on how quick my post got responses... since I do now want to be an internet troll (fyi, best definition I have found for this is on wikipidia under "internet troll" Troll (Internet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)), I will not defend myself. doing such will end up in nothing short of that.
but I will say this; Selzer, I never once stated I know of a dog that someone did that with, or am considering doing it myself, actually I don't. I just know people, and unfortunately most people are greedy and corrupt, common sense tells me this, not only can happen, but most likely has. and I will further state, there is a possibility that if you breed, one of your breeding animals came from this kind of stock many generations back. maybe so far back it would be impossible to trace. same holds true for our family tree's, there is a possibility, somewhere in your ancestry, someone faked a document for whatever reason and there is an ancestor that is of a race or people not accepted to reproduce with your family, at the time, or a marriage that didn't happen when the marriage certificate states it did or whatever. now, that I do personally know of happening, the marriage certificate being faked part, I mean...
03-24-2015 02:04 AM
Stonevintage Well, for me it was all "go" until the last box on the left hand side. "Does your dog's pedigree contain at least four dogs with working,conformation,agility or obedience titles in the last 2 generations?

For my pup, one gen back AKC but no show/competition, 2 gens back foreign registry with no record but bearing known USA respected names; 3-7 gens back, tons of titles everywhere.

My point is, one of the first blocks for "yes/no" to breeding should have been - "is your dog oversize for breed standard" yes/no. Deal killer with my oversize female.
03-23-2015 09:38 PM
selzer I am interested in the two average dogs that make a grand champion myself. But, it makes sense that you can then breed such a dog to another grand champion and get a very average litter. Because the progeny are a combination of the dogs behind them, not just the sire and dam. And a pedigree of VA dogs or champions is more likely to net you a VA dog or champion than a couple of average dogs. VA is by the way Excellent Select, so none of those dogs would be average.

In the end it comes from your last paragraph. You know of a dog that oughtn't to have been bred, and was bred, and is now being used with a pedigree that is incorrect. No, most of us who are breeding would not do this, nor would we breed a dog that we knew had a falsified pedigree.

Could it happen? Yes, it could by a small breeder especially, because if you use a sire less then 3 times in a year or 7 times total there is no requirement for DNA on the dog. Which means, your liklihood of being caught go way down, if you can keep your mouth shut. The thing is, it sounds like your person hasn't, and depending on how big of a fish they are, they will be caught sooner or later. The penalty for that is usually a pretty hefty fine and a suspension for a number of years, maybe 10. Hard to say, but if you look at the old AKC Gazettes, they list the breeders whose litters were found incorrect, and I really don't know what all happens, but I think all the pups from such litters are no longer granted papers. And they do give the penalties that the breeders get.

So, it is generally something most of us wouldn't touch with pole. Some of us do use a male who has been used more than 7 times or an import so DNA has been done on them. And the rest of us use dogs with full registration, because they just aren't that hard to come by. Dog doesn't have full registration, he gets knocked off the list of potential stud dogs period.

No one serious about the breed is going to breed to a dog they know has a pedigree that is incorrect because we are not just wanting to see the dogs in front of us, we want to see how the back massing is coming into play, and what traits are coming forth. We want to know what dogs are back there, and what to expect. We want to know that we aren't breeding too closely on dogs that we are uncertain about.

So the post is basically, a post from someone who knows their dog, or a friends dog has an incorrect pedigree, and they want justification to go ahead and use such a dog anyway. Not going to happen.
03-23-2015 09:31 PM
Emoore
Quote:
Originally Posted by me, myself and I View Post
Person after person saying we want "what is best for the breed." I have to seriously laugh at this statement, dogs have been breeding long before we stepped in, nature will automatically do "what's best for the breed" whether any of you like it or not.
Noooo. . . nature will crate a planet full of very hardy mixed breeds. If we let nature take its course there will be no breeds at all in very short order.
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