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Topic Review (Newest First)
09-04-2014 09:06 PM
Jake and Elwood
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJEtzel View Post
This sounds like a great routine.

The only thing I would suggest, is whenever you're having play time with them, to crate one and play with the other, then rotate. Play ONE ON ONE with the puppies and incorporate some training. When your husband and you are both playing with them, put them both on leads in the same room and you guys can work with them individually around each other. Lots of tug, short fetches and obedience, then switch off and do the same.

When they're just laying around napping and you're working, crate and rotate them. Let one hang out loose with you for a while, while the other sleeps in the crate and vice versa.

Maybe pick a time of the day while one goes inside and is crated while the other is loose with you in the garage, and switch it off every other day.
Makes perfect sense! The picture is getting clearer. They actually both seem to enjoy a little crate-protected time from the other so can take advantage of that. I am working on a new "command" every day. They are troopers and loving their little world. The indulgent side of me allowed them to slip and slide on the pool cover (with ~ 6 inches of water on it). They thought it was the best giant wading pool ever. Will work on re-training next spring. Don't like them on the pool cover but can't resist their puppy happiness and love of the pool cover activities. Today we conquered "focus"…aka look into my eyes…they do really well. Tomorrow will be all about "calm". One day at a time. Loving tho new life and these new adorable, smart little pups!
09-04-2014 12:25 PM
DJEtzel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake and Elwood View Post
Let me start this post my stating….Tomorrow is the day I will crate one and take the other for a little trip for a new harness (will take about an hour). Thanks to all of you for your patience and persistence. I know your advice is correct and I realize most (if not all) of you have tons of experience and have raised many healthy, well-adjusted GSD's. That's my goal too. Following is a brief "day in the life" of Trapper and Hawkeye. Please offer suggestions.

They are crated in side-by-side wire kennels for the night (~ 10 pm until ~ 6 am). I sleep on the sofa beside them so I will hear them. They usually wake me about 1:00, 4:00, and then around 6 am. Each time they both are awake. I leash one, pick him up and take him out to his "pee/poo" spot. They are both usually quick to do their business. Then I pick them up and bring them in and repeat the process with the second puppy. They like a little drink of water after their 4 am outing. At ~ 6 am they are done sleeping and ready to play. After they've gone out to pee/poo, we come in and play on the floor in the living room for about 15 minutes. Then I feed them (in their kennels). After that they usually stay in their kennels for a nap for about 1/2 hr…then out to pee/poo and play. This is their free play time (supervised) in the back yard where they pick up sticks, smell plants/flowers, pick flowers, and play fight (a lot) with each other). After play time we go into "their space" which consists of a one-bay heated side of the garage with a dog door to an outdoor dog run. They spend the next couple of hours in there going in an out, taking naps, playing with their chew toys, balls, squeak toys, etc. They eat lunch at noon (in plastic crates located in "their space"). Today we watched Jeremiah Johnson on a little TV on the floor (they seemed to enjoy that) while laying on their karunda beds. They are good about going out to their dog run to pee/poo from "their space". At ~ 5 pm we go back into the basement for dinner in their wire crates. After dinner it's outside free play for a little while and then back to "their space" for supervised play/naps. At about 8 pm (after they pee/poo)we go to the basement for play time on the floor with their toys and me and my husband. When they get tired (~ 10 or so) they usually go into their crates without being directed. Throughout the day we practice sit, down, stay, come. They enjoy the training and are even pretty good about following commands when they are beside each other. When I'm giving one a reward for following a command, the other patiently waits for his turn and his treat (or at least that's what has happened yesterday and today).
I'm writing all this because I want to raise these pups to be awesome, well-adjusted dogs we can take into any environment. I know they have tons of potential and I just don't want to wreck it….so I'm humbling myself to the experts who will keep it real, keep me on track and help me give these boys a great life. Thanks in advance!
This sounds like a great routine.

The only thing I would suggest, is whenever you're having play time with them, to crate one and play with the other, then rotate. Play ONE ON ONE with the puppies and incorporate some training. When your husband and you are both playing with them, put them both on leads in the same room and you guys can work with them individually around each other. Lots of tug, short fetches and obedience, then switch off and do the same.

When they're just laying around napping and you're working, crate and rotate them. Let one hang out loose with you for a while, while the other sleeps in the crate and vice versa.

Maybe pick a time of the day while one goes inside and is crated while the other is loose with you in the garage, and switch it off every other day.
09-04-2014 12:20 PM
DJEtzel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake and Elwood View Post
I know you're right and I need to increase their separation time immediately. They are 8 1/2 weeks old now (many pups wouldn't have been separated from litter at this point…right)? I think the one I leave behind would be fine but I am having a hard time having confidence that nothing bad will happen to him while I'm gone with the other. Will I cause long-term fear/anxiety If I take one away and the crated pup cries for two hours ...or is it all just part of training pups? Right now we have a puppy-proof side of our garage with a doggie door to a 16 X 24 ft outside dog run. Outside of the dog run is our fenced back yard. I spend the majority of my day in the garage. I sit on the floor and play with them, brush them, etc. or sit at a table with my laptop working on work-related stuff. Puppies have their beds, toys,etc. and enjoy just being close to each other and to me. I'm noticing that they are getting better about going outside on their own and leaving their littermate inside. I honestly feel I'm neglecting them if I leave them at all…..
Most litters start going home anytime after 7 weeks and many are completely broken up by 8, some linger until 9-12 wks. I brought my BC pup home at 7 wks.

What are you worried about happening to the one you leave behind?

You will not create long-time fear/anxiety by taking one away from the other for a few hours. You'll be teaching it that it's NORMAL and that his friend always comes back, but guess what? It's more fun to work with YOU than the brother.

The problem is, if you don't separate them now and work them separate, they are going to form a bond that WILL cause anxiety and stress, and possibly destruction. What will you do if one has to be at the vet for a procedure/monitoring (knock on wood) and the other can't cope at home and destroys your house/yard/pen to the point of severely harming himself or escaping and getting injured? What happens when one dies much later in life and the other is so stressed out that he loses all will to live, or again breaks out/hurts himself trying to find his friend? THAT is unhealthy and a huge problem for you.

What do you think puppies in single dog homes do at this age? With people who work 8 hour days? They grow up just fine without their litter around.
09-03-2014 06:45 PM
Jake and Elwood Let me start this post my stating….Tomorrow is the day I will crate one and take the other for a little trip for a new harness (will take about an hour). Thanks to all of you for your patience and persistence. I know your advice is correct and I realize most (if not all) of you have tons of experience and have raised many healthy, well-adjusted GSD's. That's my goal too. Following is a brief "day in the life" of Trapper and Hawkeye. Please offer suggestions.

They are crated in side-by-side wire kennels for the night (~ 10 pm until ~ 6 am). I sleep on the sofa beside them so I will hear them. They usually wake me about 1:00, 4:00, and then around 6 am. Each time they both are awake. I leash one, pick him up and take him out to his "pee/poo" spot. They are both usually quick to do their business. Then I pick them up and bring them in and repeat the process with the second puppy. They like a little drink of water after their 4 am outing. At ~ 6 am they are done sleeping and ready to play. After they've gone out to pee/poo, we come in and play on the floor in the living room for about 15 minutes. Then I feed them (in their kennels). After that they usually stay in their kennels for a nap for about 1/2 hr…then out to pee/poo and play. This is their free play time (supervised) in the back yard where they pick up sticks, smell plants/flowers, pick flowers, and play fight (a lot) with each other). After play time we go into "their space" which consists of a one-bay heated side of the garage with a dog door to an outdoor dog run. They spend the next couple of hours in there going in an out, taking naps, playing with their chew toys, balls, squeak toys, etc. They eat lunch at noon (in plastic crates located in "their space"). Today we watched Jeremiah Johnson on a little TV on the floor (they seemed to enjoy that) while laying on their karunda beds. They are good about going out to their dog run to pee/poo from "their space". At ~ 5 pm we go back into the basement for dinner in their wire crates. After dinner it's outside free play for a little while and then back to "their space" for supervised play/naps. At about 8 pm (after they pee/poo)we go to the basement for play time on the floor with their toys and me and my husband. When they get tired (~ 10 or so) they usually go into their crates without being directed. Throughout the day we practice sit, down, stay, come. They enjoy the training and are even pretty good about following commands when they are beside each other. When I'm giving one a reward for following a command, the other patiently waits for his turn and his treat (or at least that's what has happened yesterday and today).
I'm writing all this because I want to raise these pups to be awesome, well-adjusted dogs we can take into any environment. I know they have tons of potential and I just don't want to wreck it….so I'm humbling myself to the experts who will keep it real, keep me on track and help me give these boys a great life. Thanks in advance!
09-03-2014 02:11 PM
wolfy dog Jake and Elwood, I have had siblings in my class and they were not able to work with their owners because all they wanted was to get back with each other; pulling, whining, not attention for their owners, ignoring treats etc. It was a disaster.
They were only 6 months old and had not been separated since the adoption.
When the next set of sibling registered I put them in two different classes to get them away from each other. Fortunately, it worked.
A crying puppy in its crate is an awful thing to have to listen to but in the end you will be glad you stuck it out. Can you separate them at night as well? That gives them a long time away from each other. Or at least at both sides of the bed.
I worked with a couple who had adopted 2 Aussie siblings and followed up all the advice given here on this forum and the dogs turned out great, are 4 years old now, like other doggie room mates without the sibling-syndrom.
For my own dogs, I practice the same techniques when I get a new pup while the other is already grown.
09-03-2014 02:11 PM
Shade I'm more of a mother hen and worry about my dogs as well, but it is beneficial to do separate things. Jazzy gets groomed every 6 weeks and Delgado stays home while I'm at her appointment for a few hours, I feel a little bad but he's learned it's ok to be alone for a bit. Delgado goes on walks or outings where we focus on obedience and Jazzy stays home so I can focus on Delgado alone, again she's content lying on the couch chilling until we get back.

They won't be able to be around each other for every moment of their lives, there will be times that they need to be separated so getting them used to it now is actually kinder rather than cruel. Take one for a walk and leave one behind, then switch. Take one out for a play session and then switch as well. The sooner they realize it's ok the better and the easier it will be to train them when they're not panicking or focused so heavily on where the other is.
09-03-2014 01:57 PM
LoveEcho
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake and Elwood View Post
I know you're right and I need to increase their separation time immediately. They are 8 1/2 weeks old now (many pups wouldn't have been separated from litter at this point…right)? I think the one I leave behind would be fine but I am having a hard time having confidence that nothing bad will happen to him while I'm gone with the other. Will I cause long-term fear/anxiety If I take one away and the crated pup cries for two hours ...or is it all just part of training pups? Right now we have a puppy-proof side of our garage with a doggie door to a 16 X 24 ft outside dog run. Outside of the dog run is our fenced back yard. I spend the majority of my day in the garage. I sit on the floor and play with them, brush them, etc. or sit at a table with my laptop working on work-related stuff. Puppies have their beds, toys,etc. and enjoy just being close to each other and to me. I'm noticing that they are getting better about going outside on their own and leaving their littermate inside. I honestly feel I'm neglecting them if I leave them at all…..
Most pups are separated from their litters at 8 weeks. The vast majority.

Why would you think something bad would happen to the one left behind? Puppies are ok by themselves for a few hours, if appropriately contained. Crate the one left behind. They need to learn to be independent. If you don't do this now, you're going to foster such an attachment that down the road something bad WILL happen if you separate them. Separating them now is not going to cause anxiety, it's going to prevent it.

All puppies cry in their crates initially. They need to learn to be alone... and this includes being separate from you. Leaving them alone is not neglect.... most of us work and raise puppies successfully.
09-03-2014 01:39 PM
Jake and Elwood
Quote:
Originally Posted by My2shepherds View Post
Once they realized everything was on my terms it just went away. They both were following my commands when they were alone with me really well before I started increasing their "together" time. We still train separately but we are all together most of the time now since they have learned to not pay so much attention to each other because all the good stuff comes from me.. We can walk together now (casual walking of course) without any issues at all... lol took them a little while to learn they both could not heel at the same time on the same side.. lol It was quite humorous watching them try though..
Thanks! I find your posts helpful as I figure this out.
09-03-2014 01:33 PM
Jake and Elwood
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJEtzel View Post
I would definitely try to get them away from each other more than one day a week.

There's nothing wrong with crating the dogs more during the day to rotate them, or taking on a trip to the store/park/training for bonding/engagement work while the other stays home in a crate or the backyard. Even crating them in the car and taking one out at a time in new locations would be awesome.
I know you're right and I need to increase their separation time immediately. They are 8 1/2 weeks old now (many pups wouldn't have been separated from litter at this point…right)? I think the one I leave behind would be fine but I am having a hard time having confidence that nothing bad will happen to him while I'm gone with the other. Will I cause long-term fear/anxiety If I take one away and the crated pup cries for two hours ...or is it all just part of training pups? Right now we have a puppy-proof side of our garage with a doggie door to a 16 X 24 ft outside dog run. Outside of the dog run is our fenced back yard. I spend the majority of my day in the garage. I sit on the floor and play with them, brush them, etc. or sit at a table with my laptop working on work-related stuff. Puppies have their beds, toys,etc. and enjoy just being close to each other and to me. I'm noticing that they are getting better about going outside on their own and leaving their littermate inside. I honestly feel I'm neglecting them if I leave them at all…..
09-02-2014 03:25 PM
DJEtzel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake and Elwood View Post
Think we'll take one of them to the Woof Room once a week (cool place for puppy/dog supervised play in St. Paul) and will spend that time with the other…and rotate that plan weekly. It's not the whole solution but hopeful will play a part in helping to increase their independence.
I would definitely try to get them away from each other more than one day a week.

There's nothing wrong with crating the dogs more during the day to rotate them, or taking on a trip to the store/park/training for bonding/engagement work while the other stays home in a crate or the backyard. Even crating them in the car and taking one out at a time in new locations would be awesome.
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