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Thread: Bill C-615 to Ban Electric Shock Collars in Canada Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
07-07-2014 02:18 PM
jafo220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob_McBob View Post
Nothing at all, I'm just curious if Lou's protocol and similar methods would be considered unusual vs. just straight corrections to reinforce known behaviours. Michael Ellis appears to use both in his training methods.



I've certainly seen various Youtube videos of professional ecollar trainers either clearly following Lou's protocols or else something very similar. Sean O'Shea is an obvious example. I've never seen this kind of low level stim and escape/negative reinforcement training mentioned in scientific research, which tends to focus exclusively on aversive corrections. Opinions are split between following Lou or Michael on the forum here, but Lou's protocols and similar negative reinforcement techniques are extremely well-represented among enthusiast dog owners on forums, ecollar trainers with online presence, ecollar information sites, and so on; far more so than the research or general public understanding would seem to indicate. It's one of the reasons Lou is so critical of most ecollar research. Is this just my imagination?

I was going to say I hadn't seen continuous low level stim discussed by positive trainers or those otherwise opposed to ecollar use, but it appears the usual propaganda warns people about new "misleading marketing" like "escape training" and "negative reinforcement". Right before the part where it describes the "common" problem of ecollars malfunctioning spectacularly and causing severe electrical burns while the dog runs around screaming from the continuous torture
Low level stims are different things to different dogs. Thats the way I understand "low level" stim training. If I remember correctly, there is a method to finding this setting for each individual dog. It's not the same generic level of stim for every dog. This training must also be done with select e-collar systems or brands to work properly.

As far as research goes, it depends on who is funding the research and who is involved with the research. I think you would get two different results from two studies, one using one low level stim like what Lou trains with and one study using low to high level stems with maybe less experience or less thought into the training. JMO

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07-07-2014 01:30 PM
Bob_McBob
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baillif View Post
What's wrong with using an e collar for "corrections?"
Nothing at all, I'm just curious if Lou's protocol and similar methods would be considered unusual vs. just straight corrections to reinforce known behaviours. Michael Ellis appears to use both in his training methods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Ellis
If I've done leash pressure work and my dog really understands that ... and I use the leash and the Ecollar together, I minimize all the weirdness that can potentially happen or the bad associations or the superstitious associations that can happen. So leash pressure is going to be an integral part of our system of training and it is the escape part of the escape avoidance paradigm. The avoidance part is where the dog learns to avoid an unpleasant consequence by either doing or not doing something. The escape part is where the dog learns to turn pressure off with their behavior. Like pulling the leash, they move, it stops ... I turn off the Ecollar. They down, it stops. (As he says this on the video he lifts his thumb as if lifting it off the button of an Ecollar). That's escape. Avoidance means, of correction. My dog jumps on the counter I hit him with the collar, I bonk him (and he moves his hands as if giving a leash correction) I give him a leash correction, whatever, he figures out that he can avoid that by not jumping on the counter. I can say sit, my dog doesn’t, I can give him a correction (he moves his hands as if giving a leash correction). Next time I say sit he sits in an attempt to avoid what happens afterwards. Pretty straight forward. So all pressure stuff is going to fall into one of those two categories, either the escape portion or the avoidance portion.
I've certainly seen various Youtube videos of professional ecollar trainers either clearly following Lou's protocols or else something very similar. Sean O'Shea is an obvious example. I've never seen this kind of low level stim and escape/negative reinforcement training mentioned in scientific research, which tends to focus exclusively on aversive corrections. Opinions are split between following Lou or Michael on the forum here, but Lou's protocols and similar negative reinforcement techniques are extremely well-represented among enthusiast dog owners on forums, ecollar trainers with online presence, ecollar information sites, and so on; far more so than the research or general public understanding would seem to indicate. It's one of the reasons Lou is so critical of most ecollar research. Is this just my imagination?

I was going to say I hadn't seen continuous low level stim discussed by positive trainers or those otherwise opposed to ecollar use, but it appears the usual propaganda warns people about new "misleading marketing" like "escape training" and "negative reinforcement". Right before the part where it describes the "common" problem of ecollars malfunctioning spectacularly and causing severe electrical burns while the dog runs around screaming from the continuous torture
07-07-2014 12:01 PM
Baillif Fair enough.
07-07-2014 11:29 AM
selzer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baillif View Post
What's wrong with using an e collar for "corrections?"
I don't think that was the question. I was just responding to the idea of shaping behaviors using an e-collar.
07-07-2014 11:15 AM
Baillif What's wrong with using an e collar for "corrections?"
07-07-2014 09:51 AM
selzer I am sure that good trainers can use the tool for other than corrections, but will the majority of people use them that way? Consider prong collars. They can be used in protection training to increase something or other as per some post here quite a while ago, but most people use them for corrections or for power steering.

I am guessing that most people out there training dogs haven't even heard of shaping behavior.
07-07-2014 02:31 AM
Bob_McBob Is shaping behaviour with continuous low level stim like Lou Castle's protocols especially unusual in the dog training world? Every study about ecollars I read has them being used exclusively for correction, usually with the tone or vibrate as a "warning cue" for an impending correction. They rarely say anything about the model or method of setting working level. The study I'm reading now specifically says they only set the working level once, on the first day of training over a five day period. Results were judged subjectively by owners.
07-03-2014 10:29 AM
jafo220
Quote:
Originally Posted by mechanic1908 View Post
I haven't read this whole thread so sorry if it's been covered already (I'm on my mobile so it's a bit of a pain) I train upland bird hunting dogs andE collars are indispensable training aids for some dogs. They are just what the Dr. Ordered to break a dog of ranging too far. If used properly I have no idea why they would ban them. Sadly any tool can be misused and it's unfortunate people's reaction to the few who abuse them to ban them from use by everyone.
It's really more about agendas and misinformation to achieve those agendas no matter whether you're pro or con or if it's right or wrong. If they actually sat down and debated the pro's and con's of training tools objectively, they could come to a compromise that would benefit everyone. But in reality, we know that probably won't happen.

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07-03-2014 08:04 AM
mechanic1908 I haven't read this whole thread so sorry if it's been covered already (I'm on my mobile so it's a bit of a pain) I train upland bird hunting dogs andE collars are indispensable training aids for some dogs. They are just what the Dr. Ordered to break a dog of ranging too far. If used properly I have no idea why they would ban them. Sadly any tool can be misused and it's unfortunate people's reaction to the few who abuse them to ban them from use by everyone.
07-02-2014 11:00 AM
Yoshi
Quote:
Originally Posted by misslesleedavis1 View Post
That is very pretty! You have so much talent

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Thank you!
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