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Thread: Teaching an out on an extremely high drive 9mo old pup Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
06-15-2014 03:07 PM
Bob_McBob
Quote:
Originally Posted by belladonnalily View Post
Bob, thanks for the link. I will read thru it more carefully this afternoon. Treats don't work...once he's locked on, he doesn't care about food. Holding it between my legs won't work either. I will try covering his eyes.
You don't have to use treats as the reward. When you let your arm go limp and make the toy "dead" with no pressure on their mouth, they eventually lose interest and let go. With my dog I waited him out and marked the instant he unlatched, then gave him back the toy right away as a reward. You eventually add the out command and "take it" if you want. Bite tugs with handles or balls on ropes you can grip work very well for this.

You need to make sure the session is structured and you are always in control. If they don't give the toy back, they don't get to play. I removed all my dog's toys when I started training this, so he only got to play with me, and only using toys he couldn't hide in his mouth (like a ball).
06-15-2014 02:49 PM
belladonnalily
Quote:
Originally Posted by onyx'girl View Post
You didn't share that information in your first post so from what I intially read, it sounded like he was enjoying a life free of structure.
Why isn't he ready to live in the house? Personally I would start teaching him house manners now, manage his behaviors and let him learn what life living inside with his family is. Living in a kennel is fine, if that is what you want for him, but he'll never be ready to live inside if he can't experience it and learn how to do it.

As far as the out, lifting him til he drops it and marking it may click in. Reward him as soon as he outs so he knows outing is good.
Well, the house thing is a little complicated. We are in the process of moving here to the farm and kennel. We are buying the place from a long-time friend, and much of her stuff is still here. They should have everything out in a few weeks, but for now I'd rather not complicate things by bringing him inside. And between getting the kennel going, moving, and getting farm cleaned up I don't spend much time inside anyway. It's basically a place to crash at night right now. It's a long story, but eventually he'll be inside.

Sorry I didn't make the rest clear. I'm typing on my phone as we lost Internet the other night during a storm. So it's tough to proof my posts....
06-15-2014 12:21 PM
Cassidy's Mom
Quote:
Originally Posted by belladonnalily View Post
Not sure why you think there is no structure? I take him to my training area 3 times a day on a long line or leash to work on OB. I spend time at every feeding, walking or turnout mastering "Wait". He gets one hike across the farm every day. It's his only "free" time. Besides that, he is kenneled. He isn't ready to live in the house yet.
Can I ask how long you've had him? "Recently" is pretty vague. And what are your goals for him?

I don't have anything to add about teaching an out beyond what others have already said, but I do think Jane is totally right about teaching him house manners and managing his behavior starting now, rather than later. Keeping him kenneled isn't going to make him ready to live in the house, only actually living in the house will do that. It seems like you're just delaying the inevitable. Even if his OB improves outdoors he'll still need work indoors, so why wait? A lot of dogs get stuck spending most of their time outdoors because when they do get to come in they're so excited that they behave badly and then they get tossed outside again rather than teaching the dog how to behave in the house. (I'm not suggesting you're like that!)

Can you crate him indoors for some of the time, and then let him out on leash and work on OB in the house? What about tethering him and putting him on a down with a chew toy? Mat work is excellent for teaching a dog to hang out and chill.
06-15-2014 08:43 AM
onyx'girl
Quote:
Originally Posted by belladonnalily View Post
Not sure why you think there is no structure? I take him to my training area 3 times a day on a long line or leash to work on OB. I spend time at every feeding, walking or turnout mastering "Wait". He gets one hike across the farm every day. It's his only "free" time. Besides that, he is kenneled. He isn't ready to live in the house yet. Sorry I didn't make all of that clear.

Lifting him for an Out hasn't worked for the most part. For small things he picks up, it does. For things I have that entice him, it does nothing except fire him up more. I suppose I need to hold him until he let's go, but I don't want to "hang" him when he isn't being aggressive with ne, per se, but just extremely focused and driven. He definitely has a different "eye" than my other boy.

He's really a sweet, happy boy for the most part. Its just that he has had NO training at all, and he seems so driven. Definitely a challenge. So, maybe I'm expecting too much too soon. I recognize that he's my first high-drive dog too, and so he's GOING you be different.

Should I not allow him any free time? I felt like a hike was a good thing as long as he stayed close. We mix in some training there too.
You didn't share that information in your first post so from what I intially read, it sounded like he was enjoying a life free of structure.
Why isn't he ready to live in the house? Personally I would start teaching him house manners now, manage his behaviors and let him learn what life living inside with his family is. Living in a kennel is fine, if that is what you want for him, but he'll never be ready to live inside if he can't experience it and learn how to do it.

As far as the out, lifting him til he drops it and marking it may click in. Reward him as soon as he outs so he knows outing is good.
06-15-2014 07:45 AM
Blanketback Have you tried 2 ball?
06-15-2014 07:37 AM
belladonnalily Bob, thanks for the link. I will read thru it more carefully this afternoon. Treats don't work...once he's locked on, he doesn't care about food. Holding it between my legs won't work either. I will try covering his eyes.

I really love working with this guy...he's so sharp. But that comes with a price! He's taught me tons in short period of time.

I will also try waiting on taking him hiking for a while longer and see if keeping him very structured and controlled will help. I guess I felt bad because he'd been raised in a kennel with little or no socialization or handling, and that a little time to be puppy would be a good thing.
06-14-2014 11:22 PM
Bob_McBob Teaching Your Dog to Play Tug-of-War | ASPCA
06-14-2014 11:12 PM
belladonnalily FWIW, we are working on Leave Its on the leash and long line. He's actually pretty response to mild corrections on the leash. The blanket situation happened when I turned him into the kennel yard for a few while I was cleaning up and realized I left a blanklet out. I already learned that I can't hold a toy of ball around him.
06-14-2014 11:06 PM
belladonnalily
Quote:
Originally Posted by onyx'girl View Post
sounds like he has a ton of freedom. I don't know that outing at this point is going to be successful when he has basically no structure or rules(according to your description of his life right now).
I personally don't really teach an out at this age, I'd lift the dog til the out(maybe verbally mark it when they do with the word you'll use for the command) and keep the pup in drive when training.

"LEAVE IT" is a different scenario. That command means now, and corrections are involved if the dog doesn't do it. BUT the dog needs to know the command before ever getting corrected. So teach it in a lower state of drive, with a piece of food or toy, with a verbal wait, leave it, then mark/reward when dog complies. Reward with a different treat/toy than what the dog was enticed with. I'd keep him on a long line while you are training and proofing this.
Not sure why you think there is no structure? I take him to my training area 3 times a day on a long line or leash to work on OB. I spend time at every feeding, walking or turnout mastering "Wait". He gets one hike across the farm every day. It's his only "free" time. Besides that, he is kenneled. He isn't ready to live in the house yet. Sorry I didn't make all of that clear.

Lifting him for an Out hasn't worked for the most part. For small things he picks up, it does. For things I have that entice him, it does nothing except fire him up more. I suppose I need to hold him until he let's go, but I don't want to "hang" him when he isn't being aggressive with ne, per se, but just extremely focused and driven. He definitely has a different "eye" than my other boy.

He's really a sweet, happy boy for the most part. Its just that he has had NO training at all, and he seems so driven. Definitely a challenge. So, maybe I'm expecting too much too soon. I recognize that he's my first high-drive dog too, and so he's GOING you be different.

Should I not allow him any free time? I felt like a hike was a good thing as long as he stayed close. We mix in some training there too.
06-14-2014 10:11 PM
onyx'girl sounds like he has a ton of freedom. I don't know that outing at this point is going to be successful when he has basically no structure or rules(according to your description of his life right now).
I personally don't really teach an out at this age, I'd lift the dog til the out(maybe verbally mark it when they do with the word you'll use for the command) and keep the pup in drive when training.

"LEAVE IT" is a different scenario. That command means now, and corrections are involved if the dog doesn't do it. BUT the dog needs to know the command before ever getting corrected. So teach it in a lower state of drive, with a piece of food or toy, with a verbal wait, leave it, then mark/reward when dog complies. Reward with a different treat/toy than what the dog was enticed with. I'd keep him on a long line while you are training and proofing this.
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