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Thread: Ugh.. My pup seams to be in time out more often=( Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
07-17-2014 05:30 PM
Diesel7602 So I wanted to do a update.. Perseus is now 5 months . He now sleeps out side of his cage and would jump on my bed to sleep with me when my husband goes to work. He would wake me up to go out to pee, with kiss. He no long bites!! He is more mouthy by putting your hand or arm in his mouth, but not biting down. He might get my hand once in a while if we are playing tug a war and he tries to get a better grip. Perseus has no signs of aggression or being head shy. He loves kisses on his snout and forehead and rubs. I can actually sit with him and brush him and give hugs with no fear of biting!!!

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04-30-2014 08:33 PM
Susan_GSD_mom
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Winners View Post
I'm not trying to win anything. You are totally entitled to your opinion, as am I. If you are happy with your dogs and your training, that is awesome in my book. It is what we are all after anyhow.

IMO, being a MOD doesn't remove me from the right to having an opinion. I don't have to agree with people any more than you do. Your posts are conflicting IMO, and I pointed that out. I'm not personally attacking you. If you disagree with my post, say why, just like I did with you. I'm willing to listen and will clarify anything that I have failed to explain from my point of view.


If you feel that physically punishing a dog is wrong, don't do it. I'm OK with that. If you come to me in person with behavioral issues with a pup, I'm going to talk to you about them, talk to you about what I suggest to change the behavior of the dog, and find something you are comfortable with. Then I will help you implement these techniques. If you try something for a period of time and it is not working, I am going to suggest trying something else.

I'm not force feeding anyone anything. Take it or leave it. The advice is free and probably worth as much as you paid for it. I think there is much to be learned from debate. Maybe my skills at being tactful are lacking. People seem to be offended by my posts when I don't mean anything derogatory by them. I am a very direct person, and I say what I think. Maybe I need a better filter Feel free to point these things out to me, here or in a PM, so I can learn to not upset people. All I want to do is help people learn and learn something myself.
I have agreed with everything David has said, and appreciate his directness--I have a brother who's the same, so maybe I'm used to it, but I would rather have truth than sugar-coating.

I trained horses for many years, a lot of those years were spent with horses ruined by owners who didn't know what they were doing, and no one else would help them (or they were charging too much to do it). As a result I developed great reflexes and instantaneous corrections for severe infractions. Believe me, if you have a stallion who's been allowed to bite all his life, you aren't going to correct him with a little slap. BUT--you have to be fair, immediate, and consistent.

I have trained a number of large, potentially aggressive canines throughout my life, and much of what I learned with horses does translate to dogs. You have to read your dog accurately, be fair, immediate and consistent. Once he is corrected, he is a good dog again and he should know that from you. The punishment (or aversion training) is greatly scaled down from a horse, of course, but the principles still apply. I think that where a great many people fail is that they don't have the ability to read their dog and know how he is going to react to a particular style of punishment. With horses, we always said that if you start a fight with an Arabian or Thoroughbred, be prepared to win it--they are intelligent and have a good sense of justice, and know whether they deserve it or not. Ditto with dogs. They're more intelligent than horses, and they know whether you are being too hard on them--whether the punishment fits the crime.

Right now I have a 5 year old VERY DA GSD bitch who came to me that way. We have a full-length glass door, and she watches out the door and goes crazy when she sees someone walking a dog. I scruff her immediately, (yes, she's definitely NOT a puppy!) because she deserves it when she goes ape-wild, but I know hitting her would make her worse. I am consistent with her and she is improving immensely. I let her have access to that door, because if not, I couldn't correct her behavior. I can tell by her bark what she sees out the door, and now I call her name once and she comes to me instead of ignoring me and slamming against the door and scaring the living daylights out of the human walking the dog outside! She is also doing much better on leash when she sees another dog, so I am happy with what is working. She is not afraid of my hands, she comes to me for affection. Dogs (and horses) are intelligent enough to understand consequences. The trainer has to be discerning enough, intuitive enough, to know his puppy/dog/horse, whatever, and know what will or won't work with that particular animal. If you don't have that intuition, read, read, read, and even more, OBSERVE your dog, watch his reactions to lots of different situations, watch his eyes, his ears, his tail, his body. Key into him, learn him, puppy or adult.

Sorry for the long post!

Susan
04-30-2014 08:03 PM
Jack's Dad
Quote:
Originally Posted by my boy diesel View Post
it works for a short time
it does not fix the issue
we are talking long term solution
it is an ongoing process and those in favor of smacking the dog seem to think it is helping
we can all acknowledge that it wont fix the issue long term
The bold portion is where the trouble is. Because it is a sweeping generalization (as Dani pointed out) and it's not true.

Because you have seen abuse doesn't mean everyone who uses physical corrections is abusing their dogs. Unless you believe any form of physical correction is wrong.

You tend to state things as fact at times, when in fact many disagree.

Also the term smacking I don't particularly like because there is too much room for interpretation. If smacking means punching a dog to you or others then of course it would be wrong.

As far as what people coulda, shoulda, woulda done with regard to training, remember the general public does not eat, sleep and live dogs.
To expect the general public to spend hours training their dogs is just unrealistic.
Most of them also don't live on dog forums.

I'm retired now but if I was still working there would be no way I could or would pay any attention to most of this stuff.
04-30-2014 07:34 PM
bill If you have a dog bite a 5 year old " you try your way it doesn't work you have to try another way! G burg even said he or she would hit as a last resort! Putting the dog up is like Ball if said about a killer" lock him up he is still a killer!
We were giving advice on stopping biting when your way was not working! I don't want to argue with you ! Train your way" I'll train mine " don't assume everyone
Is singling you out" you do it too your self you need to read the whole story before you comment I have trained almost 40 years know more than one way! You have a great day!! Bill

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04-30-2014 07:21 PM
my boy diesel [QUOTE=bill;5454074]Wow he said hit the dog!g burg MBE David is right you are wrong get over it .Bill


pardon me if i fail to understand how you think i am wrong
feel free to point out?
i have opinions like everyone else
i have a lot of experience in training as well although not as much as some and i can always learn more
but do please point out how i am 'wrong'?
because last time i checked people could have their own feelings and opinions and that does not make them 'wrong' necessarily

ftr since some question my ability to give any advice
what i do is take dogs that have been wrecked if you will and then subsequently dumped
which is how i know about hand shy dogs and why i advise against aversive training techniques to begin with
i have rarely seen people invested in clicker training fail and ditch the dog
on the other hand i have seen plenty whose owners smacked them around until the dog was unworkable for them and the dog was then given up
04-30-2014 07:18 PM
gsdsar
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-burg View Post

What I've found over the years though is that "most" people are not consistent in what they are trying to do/teach.. And that's where the break down is..

And lastly the crate really is your best friend when raising pups and keeping ones sanity!!

Yup!!! What I have seen and experienced in my time raising dogs and through my jobs is that people want immediate gratification. A method does not work the first time, they try something else, then something else, then something else. People are inconsistent because they want immediate results.

It doesn't work that way.

I go the same route G-burg outlined. Teach the dog what you want before correcting for what you don't want. My last resort with a baby puppy is a nose smack. Very last resort. If I have to resort to that, than I am doing something wrong. I don't take issue with verbal correction in a puppy, I don't take issue with holding a snout until they let go. I take issue with telling strangers on the internet to smack/hit their puppy because EVERYTHING ELSE HAS FAILED. It's a baby!!! No one with an 11week old puppy can tell me that is acceptable. There has not been enough consistency to make that approach ok to me. You can't punish what you haven't taught. And a baby, no matter how long you have them has not been taught.

If after a week if praise for going potty outside your pup has an accident, do you punish it? NO! It's a baby. You take stock, figure out where you failed and improve.

And yes. The crate was a godsend with my latest puppy. I used it liberally.



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04-30-2014 07:05 PM
David Winners Leesa, I totally agree. I read books and train with all types of trainers. I think Karen Pryor is a great clicker trainer. I have learned a lot about shaping behavior from her books. Would I take an aggressive dog to her for training, heck no. I've learned a lot from working with old school guys that think nothing past Koehler has any merit, and what they do works so why try anything different.

Dogs are as different as people are as different as trainers.

In the end, if you get what you are looking for out of the dog as a whole, you are on the right path.
04-30-2014 06:58 PM
G-burg
Quote:
If you feel that physically punishing a dog is wrong, don't do it. I'm OK with that. If you come to me in person with behavioral issues with a pup, I'm going to talk to you about them, talk to you about what I suggest to change the behavior of the dog, and find something you are comfortable with. Then I will help you implement these techniques. If you try something for a period of time and it is not working, I am going to suggest trying something else.
And that's what any good trainer should do! Finding out what works for that person and their dog.. And realizing not everyone is comfortable using certain techniques! And that's okay..

Heck, I've trained with some hard core trainers and have learned a lot from each and every one of them.. Some techniques I willing to try and have worked well for me.. And others, no way in h*** would I do to my dogs..
04-30-2014 06:02 PM
Diesel7602
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-burg View Post
For "me" very last ditch effort, would be to hit/smack "my" pup..

Our classes always start with redirection, redirection, redirection to something that is appropriate to bite/chew on.. Teaching them how to make the object come a live and be more entertaining.. If that doesn't work removing the person and or the pup from the situation in a calm manner and crating them for a while.. the pup that is... And if that doesn't work then a good swat on the snout with a firm "no" or "enough." Very rarely is the latter warranted.. We also recommend keeping the pup leashed to you if small kids are involved.. That way you can immediately intervene..

What I've found over the years though is that "most" people are not consistent in what they are trying to do/teach.. And that's where the break down is..

And lastly the crate really is your best friend when raising pups and keeping ones sanity!!
I agree on the crate being your best friend and keeping one's sanity. The create has helped my puppy stay out of trouble, help potty train, keep him safe if I leave the house. I think that is why I hate putting him in there for time out. But , I think it's kinda a good thing, since I want him to know you can have good, with the bad. I'm taking the advice to keep him to my side with a leash when the kids are home. I think this will come in handy when he starts teething too.

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04-30-2014 05:51 PM
David Winners I'd also like to explain something.

I am a Sergeant, through and through. I train dogs and people to do dangerous stuff in dangerous places, and I take that very seriously. In my daily life, I have to take Privates that know nothing and turn them into soldiers very quickly. This reality has certainly affected the way I deal with people, quite possibly in a negative way. I don't sit around and discuss things with them in training. I show them how to do it, give them a standard to live by, and then hold them to that standard.

I am sure that this has affected my ability to communicate in the civilian world. I have only spent 5 months out of the last 4 years at home. It is going to take some hard work and time for me to get back to reality.

I truly apologize if I have inadvertently offended you or anyone else. It was not my intention at all.
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