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  Topic Review (Newest First)
04-23-2014 06:11 PM
Gwenhwyfair Gotta look at in context, what you quoted above by me was a joke in response to Sri, as no one was forcing GTF to come here and post either.

Lou, IMO, did a very good job explaining his thoughts and positions on the various articles posted here. Further he did so by discussing the substance of the topic, not the person(s) or personality. He was patient and thorough as well.

If this were a formal debate, where the discussions do not go on Ad infinitum, he'd be declared the winner most probably.

but this is the interwebz and it doesn't work that way....

Originally Posted by Cassidy's Mom View Post
Put up with what? Nobody is making him come here and post.
04-23-2014 01:20 PM
Originally Posted by Cassidy's Mom View Post
Put up with what? Nobody is making him come here and post.
Tell that to the pitbull that lives in my head! ROFL.
04-23-2014 12:59 PM
Cassidy's Mom
Originally Posted by Gwenhwyfair View Post
I agree, Lou Castle really shouldn't have to put up with this though.
Put up with what? Nobody is making him come here and post.
04-23-2014 08:02 AM
Blanketback "Interestingly, the results did show that 7 dogs out of 32 (22%) showed no signs of fear or pain while actually receiving the electronic collar shock which indicates that some dogs bred for high drive and to withstand the demands of the coercive-type training appear to have no pain or fear of the shock."

Are Shock Collars Painful or Just Annoying to Dogs?* A 2004 Study Reveals Some Answers | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

Almost a quarter of the dogs showed no signs at all. So without knowing the dogs or the trainers, I'll have to assume that the training was fair, and the dogs understood. This is what I want too: to have my dog make a clear choice that isn't confusing. That's the whole point of my consideration in using this tool in the first place.
04-23-2014 12:46 AM
Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg1 View Post
Good idea I have not done that. I notice some people lately placing the reciver behind the dogs left ear at 1 o clock. I personally always put it at 5 o clock. Which do you prefer?
It makes no difference to me for most training. Sometimes I do "point of contact" training where the placement of the box helps the dog. This is because the dog naturally wants to move away from the discomfort. For example in teaching the down, it sometimes helps to place the box at 12 o'clock, as it will tend to push the dog into the down.
04-23-2014 12:46 AM
LouCastle This is an example of the worst sort of junk science on this topic. I've written an in-depth critique of it that you can see here. Schilder Comments. Statements from the article are in red. My responses are in black.

The nickel version? This study is a biased, poorly researched, mockery of science that contains misinformation and a couple of outright lies.

At the end of my critique, you'll find the complete study, rather than Ms. Yin's summary of it.

To address the intentionally misleading title of Ms. Yin's article, "Are Shock Collars Painful or just Annoying to Dogs?" The answer should be obvious to anyone who's used an Ecollar. Yes, an Ecollar CAN BE painful to a dog. Especially when used only as a correction, one way to use an Ecollar. But it's NOT NECESSARY that pain occur when an Ecollar is used, particularly when my methods are used. Ms. Yin and the authors of the Schilder study DO NOT make any more allowance for the use of the Ecollar except for the first method that I mentioned, as a correction device when a dog does not comply with a command. That's not how I use an Ecollar and this use is growing.

Ms. Yin seems to know little about Ecollar use, a trait that MANY anti Ecollar zealots display.

This article was discussed in depth here a few years ago.

A search for "Schilder" reveals at least six other threads where it's been mentioned.
04-23-2014 12:45 AM
Originally Posted by boomer11 View Post
Btw Lou must've been president of debate club in school. I'd hate to get in an argument over anything with him.
Nope. I didn't come by my interest in debating until much later. Now, it's a function of having too much spare time. LOL.
04-23-2014 12:45 AM
Originally Posted by RocketDog View Post
Ah Lou. You can always be counted on.
Yep, when called out, I respond.

Originally Posted by RocketDog View Post
To address your final paragraph, you're assuming those people are experts and qualified.
No I haven't made any assumptions and neither should anyone else. To determine if someone is an expert in a field, simply ask questions of them. For example, if you ask about their "experience in training dogs and with the Ecollar and pinch collars" and they respond with a vague comment about "aversives" it's a safe bet that they have little or no experience with either the Ecollar or the pinch collar. OTOH if they respond that they've done 50+ seminars and have put Ecollars on over 4,000 dogs, and that they've been using pinch collars for about 35 years, you can be pretty sure that they have some knowledge and expertise on the subject.

Originally Posted by RocketDog View Post
There's problems when assumptions are made in general, especially when you aren't a regular member of the board.
I don't know what it means to be "a regular member of the board." Are you a "regular member of the board?" Am I? You've been a member since Sept 2011 and have 2,682 posts. I've been a member since Sept 2006 and have 1,029 posts. Is there some join date or number of posts before one is "a regular member?"

For someone who told us to "Move on, people," you seem to be doing nothing of the kind. This post is nothing but more arguing about arguing.
04-22-2014 07:05 PM
Sri From that study,

"The ability of the dogs to predict an outcome did affect the level of cortisol increases seen.
Those dogs who had been trained to see prey and avoid it had learned how to avoid the
electrical stimulation. Those dogs who understood “here” but had not learned to respond when
prey was present had increased stress and cortisol when electrical stimulation was given",

Is it possible that the dogs in group H(here) had elevated levels because their prey drive had kicked in? Otherwise it does not make sense to me since the stim would have been preceded by 'Here' the signal by which they could have avoided the stim.

Or is it possible that the 'Here' cue itself is causing the stress because the dogs know what will come after it, and are in conflict with their prey drive?
04-22-2014 06:10 PM
jafo220 I found this here on this site some time ago. I never got all the way through the report, but what I did read was interesting. If I remember correctly, this was posted during a discussion about the lack of research into how E-collars work and what possible effects it has on a dogs psyche.

I am currently using an e-collar on my dog. I felt we were out of options. He is an extremely hard dog. We had out first session last night and it's already made drastic improvements in his overall disposition. One of the biggest differences I've noticed in just two days is he is noticing leash pressure. I can walk a few steps and stop and he stops and sometimes comes back to my side without any verbal commands. That's probably the biggest improvement. Also right there with it is his reactivity to other dogs has improved. It took a little bit to get him to start to understand, but it's also improved. He no longer tries to charge off the deck like a few days ago when the next door neighbor is out. He still looks that way but his threshold is kind of improving there. He still won't charge down the stairs when we proceed off the deck.

All I know is it works as long as you adhere to the methods taught by an experienced trainer. I use the lowest setting possible he responds to for the correction. This can vary according to the situation.
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