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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-16-2014 06:14 PM
ChunksDad
Quote:
Originally Posted by boomer11 View Post
I agree sch is a good foundation for ppd but imo at some point the dog should stop thinking it's a game of chase and catch. What if the intruder was wearing a puffy jacket that looked like a sleeve?

If the intruder runs away do you plan on sending the dog after the guy? That would not end well for the dog (or you) in the eyes of the law.

Either way I already feel bad for the guy that tries to break in. Sounds like you know what you're talking about. I'd love to see some real world training scenarios (videos) if you are willing and have permission to share?
Hi Boomer.. thanks again for the input.. Good point about chase and catch, if it has to happen, subduing-submitting is the goal. Chunk will really fight because he has been trained to fight for the bite and hold on. In the case of a real bite a quick out and guard is the best hoped for result if I have to send him... How ever as I have said in earlier posts, I will go to great lengths not to send him..
The objective is to intimidate and either make him run away in which case I will not send him or submit for an arrest and cuff him. Having a second person with me at all times is critical to our general safety and to be corroborating witnesses in case it goes to court. Having a gsd on a 15' long line and harness doing what he enjoys using the bark and hold command should intimidate all but the most hardened bg's. When there are two agitated gsds the chance of a physical reprisal are lessened exponentially. Should the confrontation take a violent and dangerous downturn we both (the other human with me) would do the best to get ourselves out of danger.
In an earlier post Jim brings up so great points as to when you can send and not send a dog. You also can't have a re-bite, once the bg has submitted and when the dog has released he can't bite again. I am really no expert and don't claim to be.
Most of my training is basic protection in Sch mode, the container, guns etc are occasionally thrown in so that he doesn't get into a routine. I will probably post some of the videos later on in the year thru but I just got the camera and have to learn it first. Shortly we will be biting in the church since the chase was successful. I might try to video that.. I am sure that watching a flirt pole work out, blind search and bite or transport with a young dog won't really be that interesting but I will probably post it later on..
Thanks again...

Phil
04-15-2014 09:22 PM
boomer11 I agree sch is a good foundation for ppd but imo at some point the dog should stop thinking it's a game of chase and catch. What if the intruder was wearing a puffy jacket that looked like a sleeve?

If the intruder runs away do you plan on sending the dog after the guy? That would not end well for the dog (or you) in the eyes of the law.

Either way I already feel bad for the guy that tries to break in. Sounds like you know what you're talking about. I'd love to see some real world training scenarios (videos) if you are willing and have permission to share?
04-15-2014 07:55 PM
ChunksDad
Quote:
Originally Posted by my boy diesel View Post
Stand by and wait for the cavalry to show up.
great advice

no i do not sch train and if i was going to i would not go to kreative sorry

however i can see tons of ways sending a dog into a building can go bad and even end with the death of the dog

recently a police k9 was choked by a suspect
many die each year even when not shot
they are stabbed beaten and choked

just wouldnt put my dog in that position even if he was trained
i would not put myself in that position either
suspects go on to sue police stations for being bitten and those guys and their dogs are actual officers

i enjoyed slams posts here
thank you for that
Thanks again for your input... Not quite as fearful as your posts seem to make you appear... Don't ever want to put the dog in a sacrifice position.. Keep up the inputs, they really are pretty funny when you consider the source...
BTW smart guy.. Kreative has put over 100 dogs in service in the last couple of years, if you were to pick a trainer you couldn't go wrong... If you want a pc trainer for a happy home pet that's great, keep up the good work, you got a great looking dog...

Boom.. Thanks for your input too, I'll take you seriously...
He already does a lot of bite work with aggressive training now, he has bitten in both a dark shipping container at night and one during the day. Seeing a villain or td not on the field is nothing new for him. He has taken an aggressive bite at a TD with a 9m semi shooting rapidly and didn't even blink... When he works he has three modes, defensive, fight and prey drives. The sleeve brings out the prey drive, a bare arm brings out the fight drive and defensive mode is usually turned on by a fight for the sleeve or tug. Body language and facial expression are the key to recognizing which mode he's in. If I had let him go after the test decoy he would have gone in for a serious bite. The reason we did it the way I discribed was to build his confidence... Baby steps are the best method to building a confident working dog for either sch or pp.

Chunk is going to be a Sch. dog but as he gets a little older he will be a dual purpose dog... Sch is still the basis for a good PPD and while "WE" are enjoying it we will keep on titling. I know that the purists say that is isn't possible but at this point I'm not sure I buy that completely... Both sides to that argument have merit so I'd rather not bring out some of the self righteous purists to turn this into a free for all thread hijacking.
Above all I trust my td and his staff because of the great results I and many other dog owners have receive from him... (This year's nationals had two participants who train with Kreative) I will post a couple of pics from last week's training session...
Thanks again to both of you for your input... Rebuttals with respect are always welcome..

Phil
04-15-2014 12:59 AM
boomer11 I haven't read all the posts but based on your dog barking at a guy running away you think he would protect and bite? Why not tell the guy to put on a hidden sleeve, throw a chair at the dog and then charge it to try to get out the door? That could be a real scenario correct?

Saying a dog would work in defense and bite just because it has a fierce bark is a far stretch.

Plus if you want a ppd dog why are you currently training in schutzhund? Shouldn't you do stuff more geared towards real fights and not so much prey?
04-14-2014 11:32 PM
my boy diesel Stand by and wait for the cavalry to show up.
great advice

no i do not sch train and if i was going to i would not go to kreative sorry

however i can see tons of ways sending a dog into a building can go bad and even end with the death of the dog

recently a police k9 was choked by a suspect
many die each year even when not shot
they are stabbed beaten and choked

just wouldnt put my dog in that position even if he was trained
i would not put myself in that position either
suspects go on to sue police stations for being bitten and those guys and their dogs are actual officers

i enjoyed slams posts here
thank you for that
04-14-2014 11:18 PM
Slamdunc Phil,
Good deal. Talking with the watch commander is a great idea. Letting the guys in that precinct know of the issues will go a long way. Let me know if I can be of any help.
04-14-2014 07:58 PM
ChunksDad Jim:

Thanks for the valuable information, I really appreciate it. It just so happens that today I met the watch commander for the local sheriff department. He has some suggestions too which I will talk about after I pursue them. I am hoping the answer will be as simple as he says and that will take a lot of pressure off me for pushing my dog into this before he is really ready.. I'll keep you posted, thanks again for your input, the last email was really great.

Phil
04-12-2014 04:31 PM
Slamdunc Thanks Jim.. I hope I didn't come across like I was going into the building looking for a bite. As a peace officer you don't go into a situation looking for a violent outcome. My choice is pretty simple, someone has to go thru the building when the alarm goes off, the local sheriff is way too slow, it can’t be open season on anything else in the church like thousands of dollars worth of electronic equipment etc. I won't mess with the crime scene, I have a dog (or two) to warn me if he senses an intruder that I don't see and another cool head to make sure that neither of us make a dumb life threatening decision.

Your welcome. I can certainly understand the need to respond and check the building if the alarm goes. If the response time from your PD or Sheriffs Office is that slow, then you need to check the building.

As a peace officer you don't go into a situation looking for a violent outcome

Well, although you don't go into a situation looking for a violent outcome, as a Police Officer you need to be constantly prepared for a violent encounter. Even a simple traffic stop can turn deadly in seconds, that is a fact of life for a Police Officer. If you aren't prepared for a situation to turn violent you are well behind the eight ball when it does, that is the reality of the job.

I teach the "Officer Survival" week of training in our Academy for recruit classes. I also teach a two day "patrol tactics" class for Patrol Officers and Supervisors. A large part of this training is how to safely and effectively clear a building with 2 or 3 Officers. I developed this class after seeing a need for Officers to be retrained on building clearing tactics with limited man power. On SWAT, we have ample operators and extra training to move through a building and methodically clear it as safely and tactically as possible. Seeing the need to teach seasoned Officers new tactics and move away from the "complacency" that the job creates is what concerns me with what you are doing. Again, I understand the need to check the Church and I commend you for it, but being safe is what it's about. A few thousand dollars worth of electronics is not worth getting someone hurt or killed over.

Here is what I would recommend: If you have an alarm, pay attention to the indications. One indication probably means that it is a false alarm. This happens all the time on stormy, windy nights. One exterior alarm is generally a false alarm, but you can't just assume that. Multiple indications such as a glass break sensor, interior motion in several places and other rooms or doors, generally means that some one is inside. Multiple alarm indications are usually not false alarms.

I would pull up to the church and park a safe distance away, killing your lights before arrival. I would walk the entire perimeter of the church with the pastor and your dogs. I would be keenly aware of your surroundings, making note of anything unusual. Cars in the parking lot, a garbage can in front of a window, etc. I would check all of the exterior doors and windows to ensure they are all locked. If you come across an open door or window than you have cause for concern. You will need to quickly determine if the door has been forced open or simply left unlocked.

If you think the door has been forced open, i.e. pried or kicked in. Then I would call the Police and update and advise them of what you have. Next, I would stand by outside with the pastor. Position your selves on opposing corners of the building where you each can watch 2 sides of the building. Take a position of cover and concealment where you can't easily be seen by some one inside, preferably a spot that can stop bullets if need be. Then stand by and wait for the Police to arrive. If someone is still inside, the longer they sit in there the easier it is for a Police K-9 to find them. If you find evidence of "forced entry" there is no need for you to even enter the building. Stand by and wait for the cavalry to show up. There is no rush to get inside and confront the suspect. Try to remain out of sight and not even let them know that you are there. Stay on the phone with the dispatcher and give them updates. If you have seen movement inside, license plates of cars in the parking lot, description of the suspect if you can them. All of that information prepares the arriving Officers for what they are responding too. Let them know how many people are with you and where you will be. Don't run up to the Officers when they arrive .

If you have only one indication and see no signs of forced entry, all the doors and windows are secure, it could simply be weather related. In that case, I might go inside and check the building. Give your warnings and turn all of the lights on as you enter rooms. There is no need to rush into rooms. Wait a second, listen, send the dogs in just before you enter the room. Have a plan just in case you encounter some one. You give orders to the suspect while the Pastor calls the Police for instance.

I think if you check the exterior first, make note of the indications, call the Police if you find an open door or window and then wait on the perimeter you should be good to go. If everything appears secure, then carefully enter, but always expect to find some one behind every door and in every room. We never mind responding to alarms calls and checking the building. If you find an open door, they will up their response and you won't be waiting quite as long. Remember to provide them with all the information that you can, they may even call for a K-9 unit to assist if one is available.

Just my 2 cents,

Jim
04-11-2014 07:19 PM
ChunksDad Thanks Jim.. I hope I didn't come across like I was going into the building looking for a bite. As a peace officer you don't go into a situation looking for a violent outcome. My choice is pretty simple, someone has to go thru the building when the alarm goes off, the local sheriff is way too slow, it can’t be open season on anything else in the church like thousands of dollars worth of electronic equipment etc. I won't mess with the crime scene, I have a dog (or two) to warn me if he senses an intruder that I don't see and another cool head to make sure that neither of us make a dumb life threatening decision. Guns, knives etc. are the equalizer and it’s not my instinct to go up against them unless I am protecting my family. As a former martial artist, in a past life as a young man I knew when to back down or off as the case may be. I work with felons of all types in my job now and am not intimidated enough to make irrational decisions in a high anxiety situation. (Not being arrogant, we have a 3 strikes law here that makes our 3rd felony a much more dangerous confrontation.) My hat goes off to all in law enforcement who put their lives on the line each day receiving very few responses of gratitude.

Diesel, meaning no disrespect or holding no animosity for your last comments, I mean what I said about “Thanks for your input”… But what type of training do you do with your dog? (BTW if he is who is on your avatar he’s a great looking dog) Are you involved with SCH or PP? Have you ever been in a situation where a trained or untrained dog has protected you from a real villain? All my GSD’s are from working backgrounds and are bred for intelligence, balance and fearlessness. It’s almost genetically programed into them and as I progress farther into training I realize what a team you become. I have also been involved with the business end of the dog in training on and off the sleeve. Bark and bite threats can be pretty intimidating to someone who doesn’t know that side of dogs. In reality this is all I can hope for from my male.

I hope that helps, I know that this is not a risk you would choose to take, thanks again for your input.. I don't take the comments of others on the forum as slams.. probably not a good idea to couch them as such. Constructive criticism, fear based comments, but not slams.. that implies a pretty high level of immaturity on the commentor's part, why don't you reread Jim's input and correction it might help you to put it in proper perspective.. If you haven't visited GERMAN SHEPHERD PUPPIES FOR SALE - PERSONAL PROTECTION DOGS FOR SALE - FAMILY PROTECTION DOGS FOR SALE - POLICE DOGS FOR SALE - GERMAN SHEPHERDS FOR SALE I suggest you do so.. thanks



Phil
04-11-2014 05:24 PM
Slamdunc Phil,
Let me know if I can be of any help.

The working dog to me is similar to a gun, you can never get the bullet back so be really sure that you are in mortal or close to mortal danger if it goes off

Actually, of all the tools and weapons on my belt, i.e. OC spray, Taser, and my firearm the dog is the only one that I can recall after deploying. I can't get OC spray back in the can, the Taser or a bullet back before it hits some one, but I can with my dog. The dog is also the only tool or weapon that I have that can not be taken away from me and used against me.

I will add that a dog is not lethal force, and if I am in mortal danger or even close to it, I won't be using the dog. That is why I have a rifle and a handgun. You know the old saying "You don't bring a knife to a gunfight." Well, I'm not bringing my dog to a knife or a gun fight. AS good as he is, he's not the right tool for those jobs.
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