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Thread: Help training more prompt responses...? Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
03-29-2014 04:53 PM
sechattin The thing is, he normally does have flashy commands. It's only been in the last three or four weeks that he's been dragging. Before that, I could tell him to do anything. Sit, Down, Stand was all a flash. Come when called? You'd think someone kicked him he came so fast. So it's not like I'm trying to make him do something he never had. I'm more trying to fine tune him back to where he was.

And for drive? I should get a picture of him when he's waiting to start an agility sequence, in a near crouch, eyes laser focused on the course, and then the explosion when he takes off to run the course and earn his tug.
03-29-2014 04:49 PM
boomer11 Imo if the dog doesn't genetically get all crazy and have that oomph for commands then it just doesn't have it. If you have to add corrections and pressure than you're forcing the dog to do something he isn't all that into. If you're trying to compete then I can see doing that. If he's just a pet then why pressure him into a quick down if he doesn't have the drive to want to do it in the first place?

Not every dog is driven enough to be quick and have flashy commands.
03-29-2014 03:12 PM
sechattin Next time I get a chance, I'll take a video and see about posting it.
03-29-2014 03:10 PM
sechattin Maybe that's part of the reason the Rotties I worked never got collar-wise. On days we were doing training sessions, it usually went on when I woke up and then I had breakfast and got dressed. So they really never associated the collar with corrections are coming, it was just something they wore every now and then. I always made sure behaviors were solid and sharp before working them without the collar so I guess they just always assumed it wasn't a question about whether correction would come with or without the collar, they just knew that correction would happen if they chose not to follow commands because even without collar, I always made them follow through. That was before I knew much about what I was doing and was basically just a stupid kid.
03-29-2014 03:07 PM
Baillif You really should think about taking a training video and either posting it or pming it just so we can see what's going on.
03-29-2014 03:04 PM
sechattin Alright, thanks Baillif, that was very clear! I saw a nice looking tab and a Sprenger online not too long ago that I think I'll order. I'll start layering corrections over what he already knows and see how well it works with him.
03-29-2014 03:00 PM
Baillif To make that a little more clear if the collar was the only thing you used to enforce behavior and the dog figures it out the best case scenario is the dog just does what he's supposed to with the collar on. Worst case scenario he bites you when you try to put it on him.
03-29-2014 02:44 PM
Baillif
Quote:
Originally Posted by sechattin View Post
I think the ecollar will be out for me. The cost of the collar plus the cost of a good trainer to teach me how to use since I've never used one is probably out of my budget. Plus, I'm just generally uncomfortable with ecollars. I have used prongs before way back in the day, so some prong work to tighten things up sounds good. Baillif, few questions for you - What do you mean by "obedience leash" - are you talking about just a 4-6' lead or something different? Second, the dogs I trained previous with prongs were apparently blockheads because they never became dependent on the prong or figured out that the prong couldn't correct them if it wasn't on, but I'm pretty sure Kaiju will be smarter than that. So advice on making sure he doesn't become collar-wise?


Something like that. Usually 3-4 feet long. I prefer them at 3 feet long or so and a cm or so thick. Some people call them tabs. They are awesome. People always ask us why we use them and we have a hard time sometimes putting into words why they're better than leashes. They just are. I sold one I was using to a client around the same time I was starting Zebu on the contact heeling and didn't even bother starting back up again until I had my new one. It allows you to "feel" everything better. Gotta walk your fingers up and down that leash like a spider moving along a strand of silk. People who use them know what I'm talking about maybe you guys can put it into better words. I just know I love them, especially after they are broken in and super soft.

As for your second question. I don't know what you were doing without seeing you do it. All I know was it was wrong.

As for the collar wise thing. I can only tell you how I look at it. Some people don't care if a dog gets collar wise. If the dog knows he has it on and you mean business then good.

Some put the collars on the dog in a crate or something and then wait 10-15 minutes before talking the dog out and doing obedience so that the dog never learns to associate the collar with the corrections which is pretty much what it means to be collar wise.

My take on it is this. If the dog knows a behavior and I know he knows and he fails to carry it out the consequence will come. I will make it happen. I don't care if he had no equipment on at all that consequence will come in some shape or form. It is independent of the corrective collars, it is independent of how far he is from me at the time, and it is independent of anything he tries to do to make it right. The dog doesn't become collar wise because the collars don't matter when it comes to enforcing a behavior. All the dog associates the collar with is training, and he loves training, therefore he loves the collar.
03-29-2014 01:58 PM
sechattin
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanKBBMMMAAN View Post
Do you have video of you working with him? What are your goals for training?

It sounds like you know that the interest is waning when doing the same things over and over. Do you go to classes like rally, agility and do you think that might be engaging and encourage those behaviors and increase the bond?

I find that the smarter the dog, the slower they get when they are tired of doing things in repetition. Like if I asked you to say your ABCs 20 times a day as an adult. It's going to get sloppy. I have a BC/Chow mix that likes things changed up or she makes her own games - like in an obedience class walking beautifully loose on the leash but going in circles around me because she was bored out of her gourd going in the big circle...since our goal at the time was just to bond, and because she was hilarious, I let it go. If our goal was competition, we would have had to change classes, because that was not the right one for her learning style.

Honestly, a lot of time tone of voice changes a training session, as does my motion. I am not sure we can expect our dogs to act enthusiastic about dull things and if I am bored, they will be for sure. But I think you can still shape these things using non-aversives and get sharp looking dogs and performances.
I think I've done almost everything I can to make things exciting. We rotate between practice for obedience, rally, and agility. Treats have been almost entirely phased out except for teaching new behaviors and the toys I use are ones he doesn't get to play with except as rewards. I can tell he likes the toys because the second they come out, you can see him freeze and he gets a laser focus on the tug/frisbee/etc that I've pulled out. I think I've gotten my general tone and body language as clear as I can make them. I've gone back and forth the past few months asking more experienced trainers to critique my training sessions, having friends tape my sessions so I could see them, even bought a full length mirror to set up so I can see myself as I'm working. The interest is starting to come back little by little, but there are definitely times that it's like it doesn't matter what I do, no reward seems to be motivating enough for him to listen to me. And I know it's not an issue of generalization because it'll be for like a basic sit which I've generalized by the thousands at this point pretty much everywhere he can go. Sometimes I'll ask him for a sit before throwing a ball that he's focused in on and he'll look from the ball to me and stand there. But when I put the ball away as a consequence, he doesn't seem to get that it's a punishment, he just frolicks off on his way.

As far as goals for training, I'm shooting basically for any titles I can earn with him. Currently working on behaviors for Agility, Rally, Obedience, and Therapy work, focusing mostly on the Rally and Agility for now. If I get the extra time at some point in the future, I'm also interested in seeing if Shutzhund would be a good fit. He seems to work best under some pressure.
03-29-2014 01:42 PM
sechattin I think the ecollar will be out for me. The cost of the collar plus the cost of a good trainer to teach me how to use since I've never used one is probably out of my budget. Plus, I'm just generally uncomfortable with ecollars. I have used prongs before way back in the day, so some prong work to tighten things up sounds good. Baillif, few questions for you - What do you mean by "obedience leash" - are you talking about just a 4-6' lead or something different? Second, the dogs I trained previous with prongs were apparently blockheads because they never became dependent on the prong or figured out that the prong couldn't correct them if it wasn't on, but I'm pretty sure Kaiju will be smarter than that. So advice on making sure he doesn't become collar-wise?
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