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  Topic Review (Newest First)
03-13-2014 03:18 PM
wildo Hmmm... I just have a hard time seeing what the rear is doing to cause a turn in that video. I see the dog plant the front for, bend its spine and head, bite the guy, and the rear end just follows along.

This is also a good example of why agility people have such a hard time finding a good agility dog from ring sport people.
03-13-2014 03:01 PM
carmspack Wildo -- in a minute I'll be taking the hounds to the back acres for an hour or so romp and I'll be looking and analysing .
Linda Shaw could give you the explanation in the form of levers and pulleys , bone and angles and muscle attachments.

I took your question to mean about turns and the changes in direction that a French ring or knpv dog would execute in an esquive as seen
see how much depends on the hock stability. front planted rear changing the direction.
I was thinking of natural quick changes in motion such as in trying to contain a sheep - dodging out of the way and into the sheep, turning those corners at the end of the border that the herding gsd is patrolling.

the moves you have with weave poles wouldn't have any natural place , so the question is a bit different .
03-12-2014 07:32 PM
wildo Well, it's hard to know what pictures to post, because I'm still learning about the mechanics of a dog turning. To me, this picture looks like a fine example of a dog turning from the rear. However, I feel like it's maybe two frames passed where we might see what the front does:

I mean, when a four legged animal changes lead, isn't that initiated from the front legs? If so, in what way? Does the front just act as a post to push off of (in the new direction) while the rear takes care of powering through the turn? Or does the lead change actually come about from the rear?

Here's a photo of a nice tight jump wrap:

But I think that the angle might be a bit off to figure out what's happening mechanically speaking...

Here's another picture of a jump wrap:

I find this one pretty interesting. What's going on here? The dog is turning left, and yes we see the rear left foot lower then the rear right. So the dog actually pushed off of the rear left (likely). But check out the torsion in the body- I'm thinking this is influencing the turn- or at the very least preparing the body for landing from the turn.

Here's a photo where it sure seems like the front end is causing the turning, as Pimg's rear end is still on the other end of the weaves:

However, here's a photo where it seems like the rear end is causing the turning:

Then again, here's a photo where it seems like both the front and rear are making the turn:

And finally- here's a mashup from a series of three photos where Pimg catches and turns into the lure while coursing. I have no idea what leg is doing what here:
03-12-2014 05:51 PM
carmspack the ability to turn quickly depends more on broad muscular thighs and a strong hock joint.

had my dogs out goofing in a raging snow dump today just to watch them in motion making turns in their chasing each other.

they stop on the front, drop weight on the rear hand , bend at the stifle and change direction from the back end. The front has to have good angulation to extend and get itself out of the way to allow the rear to make that forward propulsion.

A chest should have good capacity for lung and heart . A GSD should not be stuffy or loaded in the front because that affects the length of muscle and cartilage bundles . Short bundles are for weight bearing not for flexibility. The shoulder and scapula placement affect the length of those muscle attachments.

The rear can't be straight stifled because that is for forward motion , not for turning because there is no bend .
The rear can't be too angulated because the longer the bones the longer the muscle , the longer the cartilage , like a worn spring , equally weakness and instability.

the chest can't be too narrow because the body comes to a rest on the front , and too narrow would not have the same stability in the stop , the turn wouldn't be as sharp .

the back and top line are not flat as some people like to ask for erroneously. the top line consists of 3 parts , withers , back and croup . The back should be straight . A saggy back is indicative of loose ligaments, a roach back will impede flexibility.

the hock has to be strong to push the body into a new direction

you have to look at the overall dog.

if you want to post some pictures so others can discuss ?
03-12-2014 11:11 AM
Doc Think of it this way. Tightened vs a linebacker. Both are conditioned. Tight ends run specific routes; linebackers are involved in every play. They are built very different but both are athletes.
03-12-2014 09:31 AM
wildo Personally, I think turning in the air is a function of turning on the ground. If the setup is correct, if the dog is flexible and athletic, they should be able to perform a flying lead change. I know Pimg can do it nicely. Watch at 2:57 here:

Course of the week sequencing - YouTube
03-12-2014 09:22 AM
Liesje In the air? On the ground...definitely the rear would be way more important I think.
03-12-2014 09:20 AM
wildo Yeah- by agile I meant having the ability to turn sharply.
03-12-2014 08:54 AM
Liesje What do you mean by "agile"? Collection and wrapping?

As far as the front end and agility, I'd say the shoulder angle and reach matter more than the chest measurements.
03-12-2014 07:43 AM
wildo So where does the broad chest come from? Is this from the width of the sternum? Or perhaps from the angle that the ribs are attached?

Carmen- I thought for sure that YOU were the one who said "turning comes from the rear" and you've essentially confirmed that here. Is there any explanation for the fact that broad chested dogs don't tend to be as agile as narrow chested dogs? What function does the front end play in turning?
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