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Thread: Avoidance behavior during protection/defense Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
02-20-2014 10:11 PM
mycobraracr
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alwaysaworkingdog View Post
I think the vast majority of dogs need to be taken through initial bitework, that involves developing the proper bite mechanics, through grip development and presentation and this is all done in prey. The helper then gradually increases pressure to get the dog to focus on him/her. Prey becomes the avenue for alleviating stress. So does your dog have any prey drive?

All dogs do need to go through initial, developmental bite work. It doesn't have to be at 8 weeks old though. As a decoy, I try and start puppies/dogs in both prey and civil/defensive type work. Age appropriate of course. If the genetics are there then this is not an issue. For my personal dogs, most of the prey and grip work is done with me during our play sessions. By the time my current puppy see's a decoy she should be able targeting well, have an understanding of the game and a very nice bite.
02-20-2014 09:47 PM
lhczth Not as a young dog, no. I developed a desire to play with toys by making it a fight when she brought it back. She works out of fight. She wants to dominate, control and beat the bejeebers out of the helper. Her grandmother had more prey/play for toys, but also wasn't that interested in rag games when I started her at 8 months. She was on a sleeve in 3 sessions.

I have seen too many dogs that don't play rag games over the years to say that the vast majority need this early work. If the dog has the right genetics they don't need this early work. Heck, my first SchH3 was 2.5 before she started bitework. No, not ideal, but I was clubless at the time. The only issue we had with her that maybe could have been due to her late start was that she was very hard to get to counter. It could have also been genetic.
02-20-2014 09:26 PM
lhczth
Quote:
Originally Posted by hunterisgreat View Post
how could they be considered "very good"?
Because most people are clueless.
02-20-2014 05:20 PM
Alwaysaworkingdog
Quote:
Originally Posted by lhczth View Post
My current IPO3 dog had NO interest in playing rag and pillow games. She was well over a year and one day it just clicked when my helper put on a sleeve. She did then and still does now, at 5, want to fight the man. Sorry, but not all dogs fit into the same mold and need to be nor are ready to start at 8 weeks. Her daughter, on the other hand, could have been started at 8 weeks (as was her mother though I was told to wait) I just chose to wait until they are older (if the right genetics are there they don't need to be doing bitework at 8 weeks).

A helper even playing with a flirt pole or doing prey work (or thinking they are) can put a lot of pressure on a young dog. Not all helpers realize how much they influence the puppy/dog by their body position or their proximity to the puppy/dog after the sleeve/pillow, tug is slipped. The OP's puppy may feel this pressure and is showing avoidance or she may just not be ready like my current dog. Yes, she may also not have what is needed, but I would never make that assumption without seeing the dog work.
I think the vast majority of dogs need to be taken through initial bitework, that involves developing the proper bite mechanics, through grip development and presentation and this is all done in prey. The helper then gradually increases pressure to get the dog to focus on him/her. Prey becomes the avenue for alleviating stress. So does your dog have any prey drive?
02-19-2014 01:58 PM
hunterisgreat
Quote:
Originally Posted by lhczth View Post
Hunter, there are a lot of helpers that are unaware of the effect they have on a dog. Even some that are considered very good and experienced.
how could they be considered "very good"?
02-19-2014 01:54 PM
lhczth Hunter, there are a lot of helpers that are unaware of the effect they have on a dog. Even some that are considered very good and experienced.
02-19-2014 10:29 AM
hunterisgreat
Quote:
Originally Posted by lhczth View Post
My current IPO3 dog had NO interest in playing rag and pillow games. She was well over a year and one day it just clicked when my helper put on a sleeve. She did then and still does now, at 5, want to fight the man. Sorry, but not all dogs fit into the same mold and need to be nor are ready to start at 8 weeks. Her daughter, on the other hand, could have been started at 8 weeks (as was her mother though I was told to wait) I just chose to wait until they are older (if the right genetics are there they don't need to be doing bitework at 8 weeks).

A helper even playing with a flirt pole or doing prey work (or thinking they are) can put a lot of pressure on a young dog. Not all helpers realize how much they influence the puppy/dog by their body position or their proximity to the puppy/dog after the sleeve/pillow, tug is slipped. The OP's puppy may feel this pressure and is showing avoidance or she may just not be ready like my current dog. Yes, she may also not have what is needed, but I would never make that assumption without seeing the dog work.
All helpers *should* realize that... if you don't you shouldn't be doing helper work as you're really just someone playing with a dog.
02-19-2014 09:28 AM
lhczth My current IPO3 dog had NO interest in playing rag and pillow games. She was well over a year and one day it just clicked when my helper put on a sleeve. She did then and still does now, at 5, want to fight the man. Sorry, but not all dogs fit into the same mold and need to be nor are ready to start at 8 weeks. Her daughter, on the other hand, could have been started at 8 weeks (as was her mother though I was told to wait) I just chose to wait until they are older (if the right genetics are there they don't need to be doing bitework at 8 weeks).

A helper even playing with a flirt pole or doing prey work (or thinking they are) can put a lot of pressure on a young dog. Not all helpers realize how much they influence the puppy/dog by their body position or their proximity to the puppy/dog after the sleeve/pillow, tug is slipped. The OP's puppy may feel this pressure and is showing avoidance or she may just not be ready like my current dog. Yes, she may also not have what is needed, but I would never make that assumption without seeing the dog work.
02-19-2014 12:24 AM
Alwaysaworkingdog
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsdsar View Post
He is not a dog with a high "functional" prey drive.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App
When you said "functional prey drive" did you mean this?

02-19-2014 12:07 AM
Alwaysaworkingdog I think people on this thread, including the OP are failing to distinguish bite-work into it's relevant phases in the context of the dogs development. There shouldn't be anything inherently stressful about biting a piece of leather on a flirt pole, this is a rudimentary step in the beginning of bite work.

So the dog is either in actual avoidance or just not interested in the work. There is a huge difference between those two things though. The fact that your dog had a bite but then turned around and showed no interest doesn't seem like avoidance to me, it just seems like the dog simply isn't interested but only you'll know for sure. The title suggests that the dog is being worked in "defence", yet what the OP is describing is obviously prey-based work.

Lets assume that his helper is responsible enough to not work a dog at this level and age in "defence", in that case the dog may stressed by the environment it's in and the presence of the helper OR she's just not interested in the work and the interesting smells and sights of the training field are far more engaging to her than working with the helper - this could be a result of bad helper work i.e. putting to much stress on the dog, too early or a lack of prey drive, or perhaps both.

It'd be interesting to see what her issue is.

A dog should start bitework from 8 weeks onward, it's just that the nature of this work changes, from prey-based, with the handler, to an eventually more serious nature with the helper. I wouldn't rush things either, if you get knocked back it's often best to start from square one and work on building drive and a solid grip at home through things like frustration and back pressure.
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