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Thread: Intact male behaviour issue with older spayed female Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
03-14-2014 11:28 AM
wolfy dog At least you are on the right track now. My concern was your female but since he has the same issues with another spayed female, you know that she is probly OK and not the reason for his behavior towards her.
I wold hire a private trainer who can observe the dynamics at your home and then take a class. Check them out before hiring but I am sure you know that.
Good luck with him.GSDs keep us on our toes. Otherwise we would have King Charles Spaniels I guess
03-14-2014 02:18 AM
Bob_McBob Yesterday I had the chance to observe his behaviour for an afternoon at home with a different spayed female of a similar age. He is extremely familiar with this dog and regularly interacts positively with her at other locations. At the house, he treated her essentially identically to the female who lives with him, with all the negative behaviour he associates with the back door. Once outside, they had their usual great time together, happily wrestling and enjoying themselves for hours. He's also just as interested in her urine.

The whole urine thing is pretty much inconsequential at this point, aside from being an additional distraction at home. The main problem of triggered aggression is a direct result of my poor training and attempts to control his behaviour with the female at the door. He went from excitement, to frustration at being kept from her, to pre-emptively going for her because he knew he'd be restrained. At this point it's completely automatic. It's going to take a lot of work to eliminate the behaviour and get at its root cause.

For the time being, I've taken some of the excellent advice in the thread. He is crated whenever I'm not able to keep him with me under my direct control, including at night. I also crate him mid-day when I know a delivery is coming. I'm working on the "standing up from a chair" trigger by keeping a good supply of high value treats with me. When I stand up, I immediately put a treat in front of his face before he has time to react, then lead him away and make him do something for it. By the time he's finished eating it, he doesn't remember why he got up in the first place. After just a day I could see him look to me first before even thinking about the female. It's a far cry from a real solution, but I'm feeling a lot more positive about the situation after seeing how effective this kind of simple behavioural modification can be.

When in comes down to it, there are definitely some major leadership and general obedience and training issues here. He has a forceful personality and strong drive and spent his first year with very little guidance. He has a lot of distraction at home. It's not a particularly ideal situation. It's also made me realize how easy is is to accidentally train a negative behaviour if you don't know what you're doing. At the moment I'm looking for a good local (ish) trainer to work with and build a solid foundation with him. I'm not sure whether to attend a class or go for private training, but I'm happy to do what it takes to rein him in.
03-11-2014 09:57 PM
GSDluver4lyfe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liesje View Post
I'm not convinced neutering will solve the issue. It may help (won't hurt), but at this point it sounds more like an obsession that he's developed. Being intact may have initially caused him to show interest in her urine. My intact male also will smell/lick female urine and do the teeth chattering, especially if the female is in heat (then he will drool). Interestingly, I have an older neutered male dog that was neutered very young, does not act "male" at all, even looks female, and my intact male often shows his urine the same interest as he would a female. But it sounds more like your dog has become obsessed with the whole bathroom routine and the female urine is now incidental. Neutering probably would have helped more much earlier on, but if you want to do it I don't think it would hurt (other than the slight risk of complications).

My intact male shows more interest in neutered male urine as opposed to a spayed female. Its disturbing to the human eye (as he not only licks the disposed urine but will lick their genitalia all day if I let him) but shows how much altering an animal changes their bodily functions.

I dont feel neutering will significantly help this situation as its already a well established behavior. It may help you in re focusing him but the problem will still need to be worked through. I would consult a behaviorist because the wrong advice could be given and one of the parties involved can be hurt or exacerbate the situation. In teaching my dog to leave the other dogs alone, I used my body to block him, then redirect once i've broken his focus on the dog he was victimizing (I know, humanizing ). Now, just a simple leave it from across the room will do. But not knowing your dog or the situation, I can't give you appropriate advice. If he is possessive over her, shows any resource guarding type behavior, or if their is conflict with your leadership, physically blocking his access to her can result in a serious conflict with him possibly seeing you as a threat or redirecting his aggression to the thing (you) blocking "his" female.

Normally, I wouldn't think sniffing/licking urine would be a big deal, but wherever an OCD behavior begins to arise there is a problem and something needs to be done about it. My advice, get someone qualified in there to witness this behavior, access it and work out a solution.
03-11-2014 12:36 PM
my boy diesel neutering in and of itself may not solve the issue but it will help get to the dog underneath all the hormones once those are gone
i mean you dont just neuter a dog and not train it also and try to break the ocd behavior
03-11-2014 09:43 AM
Liesje I'm not convinced neutering will solve the issue. It may help (won't hurt), but at this point it sounds more like an obsession that he's developed. Being intact may have initially caused him to show interest in her urine. My intact male also will smell/lick female urine and do the teeth chattering, especially if the female is in heat (then he will drool). Interestingly, I have an older neutered male dog that was neutered very young, does not act "male" at all, even looks female, and my intact male often shows his urine the same interest as he would a female. But it sounds more like your dog has become obsessed with the whole bathroom routine and the female urine is now incidental. Neutering probably would have helped more much earlier on, but if you want to do it I don't think it would hurt (other than the slight risk of complications).
03-11-2014 08:32 AM
KaiserandStella I don't think this is a problem solely because he is un-neuterd. I think being intact is giving him more gull/drive to dominate her, control the routine, and obsess but it's not the route cause. Just a contributing factor. Neutering alone may or may not knock him down a peg. Keep in mind un-neutered dogs behave in this manner too. Especially if they have been getting away with it for a long time prior to being neutered. You can try neutering first or tackle the underlining behavioral issue with increased leadership, strict, serious, and consistent training plus an added healthy outlet for his obsessive tendencies.
03-10-2014 04:22 PM
shepherdmom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob_McBob View Post
Is neutering truly likely to make a difference at this point?
Understand I'm no expert, but since you asked, yes I really believe it will make a difference.
03-10-2014 04:21 PM
my boy diesel If it helps make him easier to train or removes any underlying distraction then it would be worth it,

and this would be the result
without the testosterone in the picture you can get him to focus on you much more easily and quickly
expect that it will take up to 3 months to see a huge difference but within weeks he will be less focused on her
03-10-2014 04:03 PM
wolfy dog Have you considered taking your female to the vet to make sure your male doesn't smell anything that could be wrong with her? A male dog should not have such a sexual interest in a non-estrus female.
Curious about your thoughts on this.
03-10-2014 03:32 PM
Bob_McBob I feel like I'm throwing him under the bus painting a picture of some kind of violently aggressive sex maniac every time I reply to the thread. The two of them are happily sleeping beside each other by my feet right now.
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