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NW ORT. Ugh!

5K views 46 replies 11 participants last post by  NancyJ 
#1 ·
Well the judge wrote it as a miss in our score book but I just call it like I see it. A fail on me. He and I were nice and calm while in the car waiting our turn and also while he was out for a potty break. Honestly, I was so proud of how he conducted himself throughout the entire event. Not a smidgeon of reactivity, easy Peasy find at the practice boxes and kept focus on me while on deck.

The steward comes out, gives instruction and a chance for me to ask questions if there are any. But I have no questions, my boy is antsy to get in and all my focus is on him. This is it. But I'm still calm and still feel confident.

We are escorted to the start cones, I wait for my boy to focus on the three rows of boxes and tell him to search. He does what he often does in practice, he starts with the Parameter boxes with a passing sniffs. He stops to investigate a spot on the floor then on to the next box he shows interest. I almost raised my hand and called the alert but stopped short. Nope, he didn't give a clear indication.

At that point, I started feeling antsy. Wanting to get this done, started feeling aware that the judge and steward were watching us. Oh man, how much time has gone by. I turn my feet and take a couple steps to turn the corner of the parameter and he moves along passing several boxes. I see a small lip lick, he does this sometimes when he catches odor. He gets to the end box stops and sniffs the ground right at the box and I call "alert" very confidently like I was taught to.

Shocked when I heard the judge say "no, I'm sorry" and then the steward was at my side walking us to the correct box (three boxes back and one he passed). OK, I blew it, but I wasn't about to let my boy feel it. Gave him the treat at that box and a "I'm proud of you" pat. Because I really was.

I thanked the judge as I was leaving and she called out "don't you want your score book?" Without thinking, I blurted out "no". (Honest to god I did not want that score book!) I immediately laughed and they laughed, took that darn book , thanked her again and we left.

The rest of the day I was kicking myself and figuring out where I went wrong. DH tended to my boy for the rest of the day as I didn't want him around my dolly downer attitudes. Got over myself. Talked to my trainer etc.

NW ORT ugh! And we are signed up for another in Aug.



Figured I would share my experience since I had mentioned this ORT in the aluminet thread.
 
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#2 ·
I did an ORT with Finn in April. We went for all 3 odors cause well why not since it was held at where I take classes. Clove was first and after sniffing around for what felt like forever he keyed in on a box and we got it. Unfortunately we missed Birch. He alerted on a box, but I think he was picking up on odor drifting down from the actual box or else he could have smelled something else. Who knows. We missed anise as well, but that was my fault. He did alert, but I hesitated to call it because he had been off with Birch so ended up calling the wrong box.

It was disappointing, but only our first ever ORT so new for both of us. Finn tends to get worried about new people, especially if they stare at him, but he handled that bit very well. I didn't really notice the judge or anyone else. I believe they will let you know when you have 30 seconds left, so I wasn't worried about time. I think some of our issues was just lack of experience at differentiating between source and lingering or drifting odor. My ORT was videoed which was helpful to be able to go back and watch it.

Good luck with your next one! I have to wait until next year to try again since there aren't many ORTs in my area.
 
#3 ·
Oh man, sorry to hear it! I'm just getting started in NW and am starting to see all the intricacies that go into it. My boy had his class last night and we've started putting the scent tin on vertical objects (like the wall) rather than on containers, and it threw him for a loop the first time he was asked to search for it. He's doing hidden finds outside, but for some reason the wall really confused him.

It's definitely a thinking sport for the dog, and sometimes they just have an off day for whatever reason. Or maybe there was another smell in there that was throwing him off.

Glad you didn't let your mood affect him and that you're going for it again! He'll get it!
 
#4 ·
Don't be too hard on yourself.Have you read some of the posts by the SAR dog owners?As kimble says,sooo many intricacies!We don't compete,but find the manner in which dogs scent and track endlessly fascinating.Watching my dogs trailing and figuring out the meaning of their particular gestures is a delight.Except for yesterday.Nothing like a nice ripe carcass to roll on:(
 
#6 · (Edited)
Bramble, I think that there was some scent pooling on/around that box or as Kimbale pointed out there definitely could have been other odor since he showed interest near the other box. you were lucky to have the vid to go back and learn from it. I really would have liked to play back what happened. There is definitely a 30 sec warning, but at the point where I called it, the jitters got the best of me.

I just chose birch for our first time in this as I wasn't sure what his level of dog reaction would be in this type of setting and didn't want to chance stressing him out in that aspect. He's been doing really well and why/however it happened, something subtle came over me in class a couple weeks prior to ORT. The fear of reactivity completely dissolved. I didn't even know I was carrying around that weight as it has been part of us seems like forever but when it happened, I just looked at my boy with fresh eyes. Don't know how else to explain it.

Dogma, I read every single post/thread about SAR, tracking and trailing. I get really disappointed when the conversations end. Lol. And thanks for that laugh about the ripe carcass! Hahaha.

Steve, there are definitely gray areas at times. Our trainer wants us to really learn our dogs natural signals rather than a trained alert to avoid the dog false alerting for the reward. We have been playing find it games with him since puppyhood where he would pick up the item and give it to us for the treat. When I started NW, I had to change the command to "search" to help him differentiate between the two games and he know the rules pretty well but on occasion, he has tried the false alert pick up in hopes of the treat.Didn't get him anywhere other than a "get back to work" but at this point, I think that I need more observation practice in learning his body signals and then when I have it down pat, maybe add a trained alert.

That's just my thought process and I could be all wet so I'm open more opinions/ thoughts concerning that.
 
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#8 ·
Steve, this wasn't a trial but an Oder recognition test to prove that the dog does recognize and can hunt for odor. It is a requirement to pass before a dog is allowed to go on to trials. Birch is the only ordor needed for NW1. I just wanted to be clear as maybe my thread was confusing.

That being said, in class if I have given the "alert" or if he false alerts, my trainer will immediately tell me so I don't reward, but we continue the search until my boy pinpoints the source and then reward him

My understanding is that this type of lenient allowance is for NW1. Once the team passes Oder recognition test for clove and anise for NW2, NW3 that leniency is no longer applied. With a false alert during an NW2or 3, the judge will call a no and the team is expected to immediately exit the search area. I have heard that once out, a handler may choose to find a practice area so the dog can make a successful find and then get rewarded.
 
#10 ·
That is correct. The leniency is that the team is shown the correct hide and handler has the opportunity to reward at source. The "miss" (fail) will stand and is recorded as such.
 
#13 ·
That being said, in class if I have given the "alert" or if he false alerts, my trainer will immediately tell me so I don't reward, but we continue the search until my boy pinpoints the source and then reward him
Here's something I am confused with though. If you've given the "alert" aren't you telling him he's correct? Even though you're wrong, isn't you giving that the same thing you'll do when he is actually correct? I get not wanting to have too much influence, letting the dog work, but isn't this where the grey area is coming from? Wouldn't it be better to know when he false indicates so you can tell him he's wrong, then only alert and reward when he's right?
 
#14 ·
I know the initial self flagulation well.. I wear the scars if self beatings.. Hindsight is always 20/20 and once the pressure is off, a clear head.. Just know that mistakes happen on both ends and that is what makes us and the dogs better overall...

They did a study many years ago, and found that the students that had straight A's all their lives were not being hired as readily as those with a lower but still good GPA.. They wondered why.. The fortune 500 companies basically said, that the straight A students didn't know how to handle failure in life, which will happen, and they fell apart. The lower GPA, but still great students knew how to overcome difficulties, disappointments and still succeed... So take it in stride.. You will rock the next one!
 
#16 ·
At this point is your indication just "interest"? Not a trained response?

I know with cadaver we only call a hide if there is both discernible body language and a trained response. No actual testing of "odor recognition" as that is just training.

Just asking. Different world.
 
#18 ·
A lot of nose work classes teach you to read your dog's body language and let them develop their own indication for odor. Sometimes it's a down, sometimes they just stick their nose on the odor and don't move until rewarded, etc. the indications DO eventually become stronger over time, but it can take a while. A lot of nose work instructors insist on no obedience during nose work. To many, it's all relying on your dog's instincts and letting them figure it our above all else. Perhaps not the most practical, but you do learn a lot about your dog(s) this way!
 
#17 ·
Steve, more of a mental/emotional flagulation, lol... Which, I am much better at averting ;)

My boy can give alerts because he is in odor but hasn't pinpointed the source. He then tries to indicate (he has a refund alert) and when I tell him to 'show me' he kind of barks and puts his nose up and then tries to find the exact location.. This is getting much better, and he rarely does it now, but it took me reading my dog better and not allowing him to be rewarded for being 'just in odor' but specifically where the odor is from.. If I rewarded him too soon or incorrectly, the problem and false alerts would get worse... It is HRD and not essential oils, but basically the same idea. We (SAR) would fail or tests if dog alerts and it is called incorrectly and/or indicates and it is incorrect... So I am with Nancy and Steve on the confusion of rewarding him on the wrong box....?
 
#23 ·
Lol, I cheated and taught Bash a more noticeable indication. ;) My pit bull has the least "real" indication of any of my dogs... it took me a while to figure it out. But she was reliable within the first six weeks that we started doing it. I've seen other people go MUCH longer with having no idea what their dog's indication is.
 
#24 ·
If I took what came naturally with my cadaver dog he would eat it. We did have the dog hunting for and locating odor first, then prompted the indication through a lot of drills and built muscle memory to where the dog did not think about it when they were at source and they just did it. K9-BSD on its side on a table is your friend to fast indication training with a toy driven dog :).
 
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#29 ·
Alert is one of those terms that has been muddified but I think SWGDOG and the nosework folks have it right in that it is the combination of COB and final response by the dog

For giggles this is our cadaver test on page 29 and before that you will see the accelerant and narcotics test police K9s have to test. The nosework folks have done a great dog by making training that will work with a wide variety of dogs, especially when you consider police, SAR usually select those dogs for the job in advance to very tight specifications. You will see a lot of similarities. The downside is that if you fail you can't work your dog in that discipline until you pass again and training records need to demonstrate reliability on the failed area.

http://www.napwda.com/uploads/bylaws-cert-rules-june-18-2016.pdf

.
 
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#30 ·
I sure can see why this would cause a giggle but my jaw just dropped in awe, I may just giggle when it is back where it should be :grin2:

Thanks for posting this. Really thanks.
 
#31 ·
One needs to keep in mind that the "trained response" is not an "alert." The alert is the breathing changes, behavioral changes and physiological changes the dog exhibits when "in odor." Teaching a dog to actively alert, i.e. scratch at the source of odor or a passive alert, sit, stare, down is all a trained response. I train our dogs to "lock up" and go nose to source and stare.

The problem with a trained response is that the dog can not always exhibit the trained response. A dog can not sit when the source is a high find. A dog will not sit on hot asphalt when doing vehicle searches. The "alert" or the indication is the behavioral changes before the dogs goes to it's trained final response. Whether you are doing Nosework, narcotics detection or EDD, you as the handler must read your dog, constantly. You must watch the dog for the subtle signals the dog gives and they all give them when in odor. The alert starts with the "head snap" that the dog has recognized odor. That is one reason to move a good pace. Then the dog will turn and go back, you may see an increase in respiration, and can hear the breathing change. That is a big clue. You will see an increase in intensity in searching. You may see a change in the body carriage, the dog leans forward, ears go back, tail goes up or may drop. The dog begins to search more intently and begins to work towards source. Once at the source of the odor the dog will be reluctant to leave it. These are the things you look for.

Once you start learning to read all the behavioral and physiological changes the dog shows, you will realize there are really not "false alerts." In the training phase the dog may react to your body language and look back to the handler expecting it's reward. I would say that "false alerts" are generally do to handler cueing or frustration / confusion on the dog's part.

If you find your dog looking back at you for it's reward, you are cueing the dog. If the dog relies on the handler to find the aid or odor then there is an issue. One way to eliminate the "false alerts" is to run the odor "blind" to the handler and have some one else reward the dog when the handler calls the alert. If you, as a handler are constantly putting your own "aids", "hides" or odor out, then you will inevitably cue your dog. Your dog will quickly learn to read your body language and "alert" or "false alert" based on the handler's actions. It is really imperative to move to "blind finds" as quickly as possible. Once the dog knows the odor and the handler can see that the dog is in odor is when I start going to blind finds. I think people will have a lot fewer "false alerts" when they truly can read their dog and call alerts based on the dog's behavior.

JMO FWIW
 
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#32 ·
Great post. I think this is why nosework classes emphasize learning to read your dog. If you skip all of that when you are just starting out and just train a response, you are probably much more likely to not recognize when your dog is in odor.
 
#33 ·
Great post slamdunc! I agree 100 % although, for me, a false alert can also be if the dog is in odor but has not pinpointed the source and gives a trained indication before having located the source. This is still a training issue and alot of things factor in, and of course mostly for testing purposes. Because in a real scenario you are able to call it as the dog alerts and let it be known the dog is in odor just unable to pinpoint location (scent pool, chimney effect, whatever). My boy will do this sometimes.. Get odor and get excited and his alert rolls into his natural but developed trained response. But he rolls it all into in before finding his source location - he is just in odor. 'show me' makes him pinpoint it. He doesn't do it near as often as he did (rarely now) due to no paycheck until source is located
 
#34 ·
I wouldn't call that a "false alert" as the dog is in odor and is correct. That is just a matter of getting the dog better at going to source. It is just a training issue and setting up problems that cause the dog to go to source better. Sometimes going to source can be difficult as you know, and it sounds like you are addressing it properly.
 
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#35 ·
True.. It isn't really a false alert because the dog is in odor... Just a premature or false indication... Dogs don't lie, so I would have to agree that it isn't really possible for a flash alert to happen... Misreading body language, or a non target alert misread, but dogs can't change their natural physiological response... I knew this, but it actually is clearer now in my head, lol...
 
#38 · (Edited)
NancyJ,
I do agree with what you are saying, however an alert can be called with out the trained final response. If the ground is too hot, i.e. asphalt on a 95 degree day the dog will not sit. The asphalt may very well be 120 degrees. If the source is high the dog can not exhibit the trained response. If the source is moving, for example a package on a conveyor belt the dog will not be able to demonstrate it's trained response.

I work and train narcotics detection dogs, and do nose work as a hobby, but I do train people in NW. I testify regularly in narcotics cases and the defense attorney's questions always start with "how many false alerts has your dog had?" After I ask the Defense attorney to qualify and explain his question, which they generally can not do, I explain that I base the dog's alert on the behavioral and physiological changes and the trained final response. With that style, I have had "unsubstantiated alerts." Meaning the dog has alerted but no drugs were found. Outside of may initial training of my dog he has never had a false alert on the street. Dog's do not lie, and the dog can not fake the behavioral and breathing changes that occur when in the source odor. I train to base the alert on the behavioral and breathing changes, the trained response just pinpoints where the source is. The trained response is really not the alert. The alert or indication happens well before the trained response does.
 
#40 ·
I do understand but I have at least certified an operational dog to national standards ( since 2008), and do deploy though nowhere nearly what a narcotics dog LE would do. :). As I dig into standards though they do consistently only demand that "the handler must be able to articulate in advancewhat their dog will do" to pinpoint the target odor. So. Ok I guess they don't demand a trained final response, but it has always been stressed to me that is an important component of the alert.

But with a high hide the dog can offer a trained final response (though not if it is nose on source) and can attempt even under bad conditions (like a rubble pile, brush pile, inside a cramped car) and it is clear the dog is attempting to indicate. The body language still gives a better picture of the actual location. I would not call the location based on the trained response alone. To me it is just a conscious confirmation by the dog that they are at the strongest odor available to them. I would call a clear attemptto give a final trained response as a trained response.

But I would agree that the moving item is a different case.
I have called water finds on the dog running from one end of the boat to other other as we have gone over the body but even there the trained final response is most desirable by the vast majority of cadaver dog handlers I have trained with and, in the case of water, normally the alert is also confirmed independently by a second team as a large area blind problem and triangulation and discussion by the different handlers to come to a suggestion on the actual location of the body. In that case the dog is alerting from a moving boat on a body that in may well be 80-150' underwater with thermoclines and underwater currents adding to the complexity

Agreed the dog cannot fake the body language changes and the handler learns to read the difference between behavior with target and no target odors and we were taught to document this in our training records. The dog can fake the final response but that should be extinguished early in training

With cadaver, it is not uncommon to have honest but unexplained alerts because dogs can and do detect very old bones. We we had one in the water that was not pinpointed but was over an area of several acres. Once another completely different team *found* the same area they did some research and figured out there was a cemetery from before the civil war about 80 feet down that had not been relocated when they flooded the land to create the lake right there.

Since we are talking NW, under what conditions would a nose work dog not be expected to give a final trained response and why?

Also with off-lead search live find search dogs the expectation is clear that the dog WILL offer a trained behavior to the handler and that is also required by FEMA as well. [and isn't a disaster dog or an air scent dog another type of trained detection dog?]...I am having a hard time knowing how you would work these dogs without a trained response.

What would be the point in even training a final response in detection, then?
Do you report a COB + Final differently than you report a COB?
 
#39 · (Edited)
It happens. All a learning experience. I remember in student and class went for their ort and a dog and handler who had been achieved highest title failed the nosework ort 3. Everyone has an off day. We all learn from our mistakes and you have great advise here. I just remember my handler saying you have 3 minutes so don't rush it take your time. The first ort birch we went and Max went to the correct box two times it was not a strong alert and he was still checking all the boxes but I knew that to be the one but before I called the alert on the third time- with the words don't rush it going through my head. The first two times he went to the box I was looking for a stronger alert. The third time he gave me what I was looking for and the clove and anise was ort that same day there was no doubt. You would be amazed how odor drifts from a scented qtip in a box with a small opening. From the wall to the floor to another box then to the correct box it is like playing connect the dots. Wishing the best on your next ort!!!! My camera was full so all can be taken was a photo of or two. My daughter caught a photo of Max looking at me in between staring at the box is what he does stare at the source -at the first ort birch. He was looking at the box though this was the third time he went to the box now with sureness. so with every muscle in his body straining telling me with a quick glance my way this is the fckn box lol!!! Which washed away any doubt I even awarded him before they said yes- I did forget they were in the room.
 
#41 ·
Excellent response Nancy.. Quick answer from what I know of NW (which is small rule wise) and the reason no final response may be waited for is because it is a timed event. If you can call COB, alerts before final response you may be the winner (if correct) in the fast time events.

As to COB and alerts vs final trained response water is definitely a hard one. Had two hard cases at high high flood stage for creeks and Rivers, both ending up the highest and fastest they have ever been for about 50yrs (or anyone could remember who had lived there that long). Both my dogs, and subsequently other K9 teams had to do the triangulation due to behavior changes /alerts, but no final response.
 
#42 ·
NancyJ,

Since we are talking NW, under what conditions would a nose work dog not be expected to give a final trained response and why?

Also with off-lead search live find search dogs the expectation is clear that the dog WILL offer a trained behavior to the handler and that is also required by FEMA as well. [and isn't a disaster dog or an air scent dog another type of trained detection dog?]...I am having a hard time knowing how you would work these dogs without a trained response.

What would be the point in even training a final response in detection, then?
Do you report a COB + Final differently than you report a COB?


I'm not saying a trained final response is not important. In the ORT dogs are not expected to have a trained final response, as long as the handler can call the alert. Actually, in NW all that is need is for the handler to call the alert. In NW1 and the ORT simply calling the alert close to source is enough. Many NW people wait to train a final response.

What is the point of training a final response? The point to training a final response is for the dog to tell the handler exactly where the source of the odor is. For NW, Narcotics, and EDD's the source of the odor could be very small and the final response causes the dog to pinpoint the source exactly, or it should. For HRD the source could be much larger and harder to pinpoint as it may become overwhelming to the dog.

I'm guessing you mean "change of behavior" when you say "COB?" When I am working a narcotics dog and testifying to the dogs alert as PC to search a car for example, I explain the exact change of behavior, change in respiration, the nostrils fluttering, the head snap and direction change when the dog hits the odor. I also describe the dog's body language, for example with Boomer, he goes up on his toes, leans forward, ears go back and tail drops when in odor. I describe the movement in his ribcage and how his nostrils flutter when he is in the odor of narcotics (narcotics or NW oils would be no different.). How his normal respiration is about 30 BPM and increases to 100 - 150 BPM when "in odor."

After explaining the increase in intensity and searching and zeroing in on the source of the odor then I describe his final response. Boomer is an active or aggressive alerting dog, his trained response is to scratch at the source of the odor. Francesca is a passive alert, nose to source trained final response. Boomer scratches at source or bites, Francesca puts her nose to the source. However, one must realize for my purposes any dog can be cued to scratch or sit. That is not an alert. The alert is what can't be trained, the physiological and behavioral changes. Of course I train a final response and it is extremely accurate, it is important to have a reliable final response. This is what tells us where to search or where the aid or source of the odor is.

In NW a reliable final response is needed to accurately call the location of the hide.

I'm not saying a trained response is not needed, it is invaluable. What I am saying is that the alert is not based off the trained the response, that is where the false alerts come in to play for new handlers. The indications tell you the dog is in odor, the trained response pinpoints where the odor is. Do I need a full trained response to call an alert with Boomer, absolutely not. I call the alert on the behavioral changes and indications I get before he gives his final response. Many times I call the alert with him before he can scratch and go to his trained response. Why, would I do that? Because he is a highly driven beast and has scratched cars, removed parts of fenders and torn license plates off cars.

Did you need to see the final response when you worked in the dark and had to call the alert off your dog's change in breathing? No, you knew the dog was about to alert. Same thing, the final response is trained but not relied on to call the alert. I hope that makes sense.
 
#43 ·
It does make sense. And I was thinking how your trained response is more useful for pinpointing where my real pinpoint is the consistent behavior of my dog freezing, nose flaring, tail wagging slowly THAT is how I know he is at source. And not something I can train. Any thing else I have to extrapolate location using everything he gives me.

Good to understand how NW does it............
 
#44 ·
It does make sense. And I was thinking how your trained response is more useful for pinpointing where my real pinpoint is the consistent behavior of my dog freezing, nose flaring, tail wagging slowly THAT is how I know he is at source. And not something I can train. Any thing else I have to extrapolate location using everything he gives me.

Good to understand how NW does it............
Exactly, the behavioral changes, that you see in your dog, all dogs are slightly different is the alert.

The nose flaring, tail wagging slowly, the dog freezing are the indications that the dog "is in odor." That is what I call my alerts on. This is what people doing detection work, NW, etc need to understand, need to know and need to read their dogs. This is the critical information the dog gives us, before the trained response of the sit, down, scratch, etc. As I mentioned before, the dog can not always go to the trained response, so us as handlers need to work off the "indications" that the dog is in odor. When people can read their dogs and call the alert based on behavior and not the trained response, they have gone to the next level of handling. This is the key to really being successful. A large part of that is not relying solely on the trained response.

It's funny, I am a NW judge and I train NW. I had a friend that trains with me go to do her ORT. She met a fellow competitor outside and they started talking talking about training. The woman talking to my friend said "Oh, you shouldn't train with a K9 Officer they don't understand NW and detection. Come train with us." I find that hysterical as I do a lot of detection training, seize a lot of dope, testify weekly and work in real world deployments.
 
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#45 ·
I have used a trained sit response in the absence of the above but with clear body language (breathing, head carriage, hunting behavior, tail carriage) as a cue to help my dog detail an area. It seems where this kind of thing happens most is in buildings where air flow does crazy things. Outside he rarely needs "help" figuring it out. Almost all single blind. I have seen people NOT learn to read their dogs by setting too many of their own problems.
 
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