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Old 10-08-2012, 12:50 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I'm not totally clear on what happened....you say your dog was "passing" so you mean both dogs were in the SAME lane and your dog was passing in, like they do during a real race? If so I'm not sure how barriers could be used, with dogs already passing in the same lane.
We were not passing using the same lane. Imagine two lanes side by side and two jumps in Dog A's lane and 2 jumps in Dog B's lane. They would put a barrier between the two lanes to prevent it from happening again. I appreciate your response as someone who has done Flyball before and understands the frenzied state the dogs can get into. You're right, this wasn't the same as a fight or attack at the dog park. What bothers me most is that I know the GSD was very soft and that made me feel worse.
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:55 PM   #22 (permalink)
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OK. I would go back to working your dog alone for a few times, then what we do is just get another dog out, not even working. Sometimes I bring my dog Coke along (he doesn't do flyball) and we just *stand* in the other lane while the dog works, or we do some really low-key obedience so we are moving but not real attractive. Since Coke is real dog-friendly there won't be a fight if the other dog breaks and comes over. We slowly work up to the other dog being OK working side by side. Luna, the dog I fostered has been coming since July and is still working all by herself, no other dog on the floor. For some dogs this isn't necessary but for dogs that want to run or chase they need to have a really clear understanding of what is going on before another dog comes in.
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:00 PM   #23 (permalink)
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OK. I would go back to working your dog alone for a few times, then what we do is just get another dog out, not even working. Sometimes I bring my dog Coke along (he doesn't do flyball) and we just *stand* in the other lane while the dog works, or we do some really low-key obedience so we are moving but not real attractive. Since Coke is real dog-friendly there won't be a fight if the other dog breaks and comes over. We slowly work up to the other dog being OK working side by side. Luna, the dog I fostered has been coming since July and is still working all by herself, no other dog on the floor. For some dogs this isn't necessary but for dogs that want to run or chase they need to have a really clear understanding of what is going on before another dog comes in.
O.k., that makes sense. Would it be alright if I PM you?
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:27 PM   #24 (permalink)
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sure
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Old 10-08-2012, 02:30 PM   #25 (permalink)
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We were not passing using the same lane. Imagine two lanes side by side and two jumps in Dog A's lane and 2 jumps in Dog B's lane. They would put a barrier between the two lanes to prevent it from happening again.
Ah, I misunderstood - "passing" would be in the same lane, as the dogs would do when running on a team together, what you're referring to is a "side by side" (SBS) run, where you've got two dogs running in lanes next to each other, like they would when racing against another team. Yes, what we do is put plastic mesh fencing between the lanes if we've got a chaser, or we completely encase the lane with a channel of plastic fencing.

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OK. I would go back to working your dog alone for a few times, then what we do is just get another dog out, not even working. Sometimes I bring my dog Coke along (he doesn't do flyball) and we just *stand* in the other lane while the dog works, or we do some really low-key obedience so we are moving but not real attractive. Since Coke is real dog-friendly there won't be a fight if the other dog breaks and comes over. We slowly work up to the other dog being OK working side by side. Luna, the dog I fostered has been coming since July and is still working all by herself, no other dog on the floor. For some dogs this isn't necessary but for dogs that want to run or chase they need to have a really clear understanding of what is going on before another dog comes in.
That's what we do too. We'll have a dog that's just "out", not doing anything in particular. At first the other dog would be not all that close, and either just standing there, or maybe in a down. If that's okay, we would bring the other dog closer, or have them start moving around more. When Halo is the dog who's out while a green dog trains, I'll start with her in a down stay near me, and then have her standing doing a series of hand touches, so she's moving around quite a bit and even jumping up to target my hand. Only when dogs are successful at a particular level of distraction do we progress to the next level.

And like Lies with Coke, we always use a solid dog as our distraction, we don't run two green dogs together. Also, if we're doing SBS runs over the jumps we would start the green dog first, so the solid dog is running behind them and not out in front or right next to them so they can see them. There are all sorts of strategies to make this work for Fuzzy if you and the club are committed to working on it with you. Chasing is such a common issue in the sport that most flyball people don't freak out about it, and they are usually willing to work on it with a dog that has potential.

I'm lucky that Halo only chased a couple of times in class and at practice. The last time she did it the other owner yelled at Halo and whacked her in the head a few times with her tug, and that was the end of that, lol!
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:24 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Chasing is such a common issue in the sport that most flyball people don't freak out about it, and they are usually willing to work on it with a dog that has potential.
This is exactly it. Since I wasn't there I'm hesitant to say it was an "attack". Given the nature of the sport and the fact that the dog was invited back even after the incident I'll give the OP the benefit of the doubt. The dog just needs more work on focus and learning what flyball is all about (though ironically my team has intentionally had one dog chase another dog to build more speed and drive!).
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Old 10-08-2012, 05:18 PM   #27 (permalink)
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We do chase power jumping, lol! All our dogs seem to love it, and so far there hasn't been any trouble with dogs not going to their handler in the runback area, and continuing to chase the other dog instead. We pull the box, put 8 jumps in a row instead of 4, and have two restrainers at one end. The two handlers pass off their dogs to the restrainers and then run down to the other end. Either the faster dog goes first and the second dog is sent right behind, or with dogs of similar speeds, the first dog gets a slightly bigger head start, and the second dog is basically chasing the first dog through the jumps.

A passing exercise we do that the dogs all like is to put two jumps together with the middle uprights taken out, so it's like one double wide jump. We set up 4 of these in a row, and then string plastic mesh fencing down the middle of the lane, between the two halves of the jumps. We do opposite direction restrained recalls with the dogs going at the same time - they each have a full width jump, and the fencing keeps the dogs apart, but they are passing right next to each other at full speed. It gets them used to flying past another dog while being totally safe, so it builds confidence.

Another exercise we do is to split the lane with the same long plastic mesh fencing, back in the runback area. We do full runs, starting with the dogs on the right side and catching them on the other side when they run back. It's good for lane hogs (like Halo!!!), and would also be good for chasers if the fence goes right up to the first jump.
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Old 10-09-2012, 06:32 AM   #28 (permalink)
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He definitely didn't just chase the dog. He was aggressive about the dog running near him. There was no bite but he basically jumped it with his mouth open and making those nasty dog sounds they do. If he had simply chased it I wouldn't be upset because we'd just have to work on focus. It's the fact that he was aggressive about it that upsets me. I'll see what the instructor says. I emailed them yesterday but haven't heard back yet because of the holiday.
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Old 10-09-2012, 09:42 AM   #29 (permalink)
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I really think he needs more time before you can evaluate it. To me it sounds like he was rushed and this is not your fault or his. It almost seems like the instructor knows this which is why they said it was OK and that you were invited back. I always do what my instructor says and she trusts my dog more than I do!

Nikon sounds similar to Jazz. I NEVER would have thought he could even do flyball for fun, let alone have three titles already and be comfortable running around off leash with the other dogs. Because of his prey drive and his higher level of protectiveness over his/our personal space I still watch him closely. I'm not one that just throws the door open and lets my dogs dart around in circles while we're getting setup, if he is not actively working then he is expected to be with me in heel position but this is not a problem since he is SO ball driven and I use his favorite ball as his reward. The longer we do flyball, the more clear he is about what he is doing. He's always had tunnel vision for me and his reward so we have that to our advantage. He has no desire to interact with the other dogs it's just a matter of getting him comfortable working on what is essentially a relay team and not freaking out when dogs are in what he might consider his personal space. So far the only dog he's made a grab at has been Pan (my other dog), lol. Both of them needed to learn passes so we raced them together in training since they are both big and fast. No one wanted to volunteer their dainty little dog to train my dogs to pass, lol.

Also when the dogs are revved up in drive they are more like to take jabs at each other. I've seen the same thing in agility and luckily had a really good instructor who was careful to make sure people were physically holding their dogs out of the way while someone else was taking a turn because at agility we had a few instances of people letting their dogs run amuck and get in the face of other dogs that were trying to work in drive.
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:07 AM   #30 (permalink)
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I'm trying flyball with my dog and this is my worst fear! Not that she'll be attacked, but that she'll do the attacking!

She is a bit dog-reactive. Mostly wants to play, but a couple of times, she's had a dog approach her and it got a bit snarly. Right now we're working her with another dog, but she goes, then the other dog goes. But when the other dog goes, she's barking and pulling toward it. She just gets too riled up.

My trainer has also said not to worry that it's normal, but I totally understand your fear.

I'd say, if your trainer is willing to work with you on it, keep at it. Maybe your trainer will pair your dog up with one of their dogs if they really feel it's fixable, so that if something happens it's with their dog (obviously they still feel comfortable working with your dog), not another teammates.
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