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Old 01-02-2013, 12:39 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Who wouldn't be defensive at this point??
I'm uncomfortable reading it (due to the inquisition going on, or perhaps it's an interrogation??) and I'm not the OP!!
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:21 PM   #72 (permalink)
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I think just to be openly honest here, the OP did just post to say hello and introduce himself and the thread and questions did go beyond the norm for an introduction. HOWEVER, I don't believe the OP realized what he was opening himself up to when he posted his website and invited everyone to have a look and "learn more about me and what I do".

I hope the OP sticks around and continues to share with the forum, but with the realization that this is not just a "pet forum", but a gathering spot for those with a plethora of knowledge in all aspects of the breed.

Welcome!
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:14 AM   #73 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakl View Post
I think just to be openly honest here, the OP did just post to say hello and introduce himself and the thread and questions did go beyond the norm for an introduction. HOWEVER, I don't believe the OP realized what he was opening himself up to when he posted his website and invited everyone to have a look and "learn more about me and what I do".

I hope the OP sticks around and continues to share with the forum, but with the realization that this is not just a "pet forum", but a gathering spot for those with a plethora of knowledge in all aspects of the breed.

Welcome!
Hi,

Thanks for the Welcome. I am sure there are a lot people here with an abundance of knowledge when it comes to the GSD breed. This is why I decided to reach out to others in this forum. While I expected some questions in regards to the Service Dogs and there training, even what my inspiration was to be involved with Service Dogs for disabled people, I was not expecting to get trampled by a rioting crowd of breeders at the door
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:18 AM   #74 (permalink)
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Welcome Aboard!!
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Taz:11/15/99-01/26/12 Ginger:06/23/02-02/13/13
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:41 AM   #75 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Freestep View Post
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If a breeder has any "questionable" activity, believe me, they get a good and proper spanking, and such threads usually end up closed. Everyone knows how those "I want to breed my dog" threads turn out. Stick around for a while and you'll see! It's why a lot of people lurk a long time before posting--or they rarely post at all--they are afraid. A lot of folks here will attest to that fact. You're brave to have jumped right in with both feet!

But I have to say, much depends on the attitude of the OP. If they are humble and gracious, they get a much calmer reception, even if they've made mistakes. If the OP is secretive, defensive, and hostile, people will notice and call it out. Please don't be offended, I'm not attacking you, I'm just sayin'. The dog fancy in general is full of "cliques", maybe that is why you have stayed away from it?


"The dog fancy in general is full of "cliques", maybe that is why you have stayed away from it?"

Exactly! That IS why I have stayed away from it. People in the dog world often have their OWN way of thinking or they are part of various "clicks" that have various collective ways of thinking. I am looking fore more like-minded GSD people but as my Father once said "There is only one thing dog trainers and breeders will ever completely agree on… it is what the other one they are talking about is doing wrong." To each their own, I have a vision of my own that I am entitled to just as anyone else. I am not going to attack anyone for doing what they do in regards to breeding unless the vision is obviously harmful to the dog and breed in general. If this board existed 25 years ago I would be all over working line and show line breeders as the "click" they became a part of contributes to the further separation of the breed. Today all there is ... is working line or show line and the camps have dug in and practice mud sling on a daily basis. When I talk to other breeders about what I would like to do when I decided to move forward with my father’s theory’s in a breeding program, the most common response I get from VERY experienced breeders is "Good luck, it would be nice if that does surface in a consistent line. A lot have attempted it and failed, some CLAIM to have "done it" when in fact they are making claims that are the furthest thing from the truth." What I don’t get from them is “I know people who have done it.” So, unless I am way out of the loop here… Please show me the documented success in this task and where I can read about it in some kind of sanctioned GSD review. If you can in fact direct me to breeders who have accomplished this task in a solid line that brings the best in both worlds, I would LOVE to contact that breeder and purchase one of those pups. I would be interested in how they “did it” as it is a very noteworthy accomplishment. Can you or anyone else provide links to that information on here? As you said… this is information others should know about. So we should post it.
I did not "jump right in feet first". From my prospective, I was pushed in head first while I was just leaned over the edge looking at the water, hit the water and discovered real quick that it was infested with piranha.
"If they are humble and gracious, they get a much calmer reception"
I see, so you think jumping down someone’s throat on a welcome mat is "humble and gracious"? Do you think that someone you don’t know that seems to have good intentions to try and improve the breed of the GSD should "they get a good and proper spanking"? Hardly humble, never mind welcoming.






Quote:
Originally Posted by Freestep View Post
Fair enough--each line has its strengths and weaknesses, I don't care which bloodline my next dog comes from, as long as it is the right dog. What is it about working lines you don't like? Personally, I don't like extreme prey drive, low thresholds, and insane activity levels of some working lines, the high-scoring "podium" dogs bred for sport (which does not encompass all working lines). To be honest, I've never owned a showline dog and I don't have much experience with them--but I don't dislike them. I personally think it's a shame that there is such a deep split between working and show. IMO there should be ONE GSD that has the best of both worlds--I suspect you agree--but the problem is, how do we get there? Some folks think the best way is to breed only V-rated working dogs. Others think that we need to breed only good-working show dogs. Still others think the whole system needs to change in order to reward only the RIGHT dogs, not just the "prettiest" or the highest scoring extremes. Should we cross the lines? That is the question; some breeders are doing it in a very thoughtful way and have had some success with it. Far too many have done it without any long-term plan or goal and so no lasting impact is made (for better or worse).
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IMO it is both and then some. Working and Show lines do need to be crossed but not until the dogs are closer to bridging the gap. If the mindset of both camps were not so divided, it would be an easier task but it seem they keep on trucking in there respected directions clinging to the workability or look of the dog alone.





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Originally Posted by Freestep View Post
What aspects of temperament does the show line have that the working line lacks? I know you wanted to take this to PM, but public discussion helps everyone learn. There are a lot of newbies and other interested folk here researching the breed.
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While I appreciate your interest in my views in this regard I do not care to answer another question that potentially has a lot of room for debate at this time. I am sorry but I work 12+ hours a day and do not have time to keep up with a huge debate publicly.
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:49 AM   #76 (permalink)
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Welcome Aboard!!
Hi Jerry,

Thanks for the Welcome!
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:25 AM   #77 (permalink)
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"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freestep
What aspects of temperament does the show line have that the working line lacks? I know you wanted to take this to PM, but public discussion helps everyone learn. There are a lot of newbies and other interested folk here researching the breed.

[/FONT][/SIZE]
While I appreciate your interest in my views in this regard I do not care to answer another question that potentially has a lot of room for debate at this time. I am sorry but I work 12+ hours a day and do not have time to keep up with a huge debate publicly.
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In other words no answers .

Seems a bit of a hybrid mess. If you are a producer for working dogs then you have one concern one responsiblity and that is producing dogs that perform to the highest standards of whatever purpose they are to be used.
Not some personal indulgence about VA's and BSP in one dog , neither which has any bearing on work-function ---not for guide, therapy-assistance, police .

"When I talk to other breeders about what I would like to do when I decided to move forward with my father’s theory’s in a breeding program, the most common response I get from VERY experienced breeders is "Good luck, "

so who are these very experienced breeders ?


1967 German Seiger
Ch. Bodo v. Lierberg ROM, SchH III, FH, K
kl 1, CACIB
1967 German Sgr. Ch. Bodo v. Lierberg ROM, SchH III, FH, KKL1, CACIB

Breeder: K. Klug; Mulheim/Ruhr
Owner: Mr. Erich Renner
Born: March 16th, 1962

producer of guide dogs

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Old 01-03-2013, 02:14 AM   #78 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
"
Quote:

In other words no answers .

Oh... I got an answer but your not going to like it

Seems a bit of a hybrid mess. If you are a producer for working dogs then you have one concern one responsiblity and that is producing dogs that perform to the highest standards of whatever purpose they are to be used.
Not some personal indulgence about VA's and BSP in one dog , neither which has any bearing on work-function ---not for guide, therapy-assistance, police .

Here we go... Dig in good now

"When I talk to other breeders about what I would like to do when I decided to move forward with my father’s theory’s in a breeding program, the most common response I get from VERY experienced breeders is "Good luck, "Please finish the sentence... I said ""Good luck, it would be nice if that does surface in a consistent line. A lot have attempted it and failed, some CLAIM to have "done it" when in fact they are making claims that are the furthest thing from the truth."

so who are these very experienced breeders ?

Joe Testa, (knew my father well in the military... enough said) Pia Blackwell, (Please tell me you know who she is) Joe Burger (He has been importing and breeding working and show line GSD’s for about 50 years.)


1967 German Seiger
Ch. Bodo v. Lierberg ROM, SchH III, FH, K
kl 1, CACIB

1967 German Sgr. Ch. Bodo v. Lierberg ROM, SchH III, FH, KKL1, CACIB


Breeder: K. Klug; Mulheim/Ruhr
Owner: Mr. Erich Renner
Born: March 16th, 1962

producer of guide dogs
OK, maybe I am a bit overtired and I am missing your point. Please explain to me how posting a pic from 1967 proves that what I am attempting exists today?
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:35 AM   #79 (permalink)
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many of us know Pia Blackwell through a genetics list ... she does not use show lines? from here web site "
We choose to breed working line German Shepherds Dogs primarily out of west german working lines .
For the following reason .
A good German Shepherd should have drive ,desire, nerves, and temperament to do its work well but in no way should this mean that the dog is hyper,
can't calm down, is incapable of being a family dog or is unreliable , hectic or worse unpredictable. When a good balance is achieved by careful selection
of bloodlines and breeding stock the dog can and will work on the streets, sport fields with high enthusiasm ,drive
and desire to work under it's handler direction. Come home and relax and play with the kids .
Many people have the notion that working line dogs are harder to live with. I strongly disagree!!
I have worked and lived for many years with both lines. In the early to late 1980 one still could find
a good percentage of dogs out of "german show line " lineage and get a very good working dog
along with good nerve .
EXAMPLE ..
1998 Brevet Ringsport Champion V- rated Byron vom Rheinland ScHH3 ,HIC,Brevet ,KKL1 ,
This has changed drastically during the course of the last 15 years !
High percentage of "show line dogs lack the nerve strength and self-confidence , have issues with strange
environment and sadly much less capable of doing what the breed was intended for,
serve and work along mankind to achieve tasks that this breed is known and respected for throughout the world!!

Furthermore , the rear angulation of the German show line is becoming scary similar
to the American bred German Shepherd. Dogs with to much rear angulation will loose their function of agility .
Angulation is necessary but over angulation is not functional . In my opinion the working line puppy vs the show line puppy have two distinct differences in
behaviors . working line pups are more out going,like to explore,run right up to strangers and love to play! show line pups are more reserved have issues in
strange environment and rather stick to the side of their owner which is lack of confidence . Keep in mind that my observations are by percentage of dogs
and experience in each line. NOT BY INDIVIDUAL ANIMALS . I also learned through experience that the working lines are healthier and hardier.
















I opted to live work and base my breeding program on working line German Shepherds to maintain what the breed was created for by the founder of the
breed Max von Stephaniz- who said and I quote
keep my breed a working dog as I worked all my live to achieve that goal .

My breeding program started with west german conformation lines however to maintain a good percentage of workable and serviceable dogs primarly out
of show lines was not to my satisfaction. Today, with a good line up of dog's with excellent and proven working bloodlines and my passion for the breed .
I have reached a plateau in my breeding program I can be proud of .

Throughout my web pages you will notice dogs carrying the "vom Rheinland "name working in different venues .Again the versatility of the breed is of up
most importance so dogs can keep serving mankind in all types of different service department and are not limited to one or two tasks ! In addition vom
Rheinland Dogs are very pleasing to the eye with very good overall structure ,expression ,pigment and strength.

With so many lines of work, such as Police K-9, narcotic/explosive detection, guiding the blind, or special needs assistant dogs and also on the sport field
there is always a possibility, that the dog be exposed to something the handler/trainer did not prepare for. In such a case, the dog HAS to have nerve
strength to absorb and overcome the new situation without departing the task at hand .In the home a dog must have good nerve in order to tolerate a child
stumping over it , kids running through the door with friends in tow ,a dog with good nerve and character can judge a situation .

Special mention in this paragraph to Cole vom Rheinland deployed to ground zero ,9-11-01 , a task no man or beast could have
prepared for !!




With a well-bred, stable and sound German Shepherd, you can expect a dog you can be proud of .
Never dull or fragile in it's appearance






vom Rheinland can provide you with a German Shepherd the way he was meant to be!! Loyal,intelligent,strong ,confident ,good
natured ,versatile and a pleasure to the eye .





Pia M. Blackwell

vom Rheinland German Shepherds




Byron vom Rheinland



over angulation

extreme over angulation
american line

very good -normal angulation
west german working line

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Old 01-03-2013, 02:55 AM   #80 (permalink)
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many of us know Pia Blackwell through a genetics list ... she does not use show lines?
OK, I am sure PIA will appreciate the plug on her great dogs, but what was the point of pointing out that she was a working line breeder? Unlike some, I am not going to pick sides on Working or Show lines. The question was who these breeders were that pointed that out to me. I gave you a few names so, why did you not answer my previous question or even acknowledge it. Again, a pic from 1967 proves???
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