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Old 12-31-2012, 07:48 PM   #31 (permalink)
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While there are many that claim their dog or the parents have SchH 1, 2 or 3 title and have the paperwork to prove it.. The dog proves otherwise. I have personally seen documented SchH 3 dogs that do not know what a dumbbell is (SAD, AND A VERY REAL PROBLEM). Likewise KKL1 and or VA rated dogs that would raise an eyebrow of even the inexperienced GSD owner.
The proof is in the pudding these days. You MUST meet the dogs and see them work for yourself to be certain those titles are valid. It is sad that these things happen, these things were once just isolated incidences, and sadly it is more common for some breeders to have dogs with paper titles these days.
Where are you buying your breeding stock? From brokers?

I know several breeders (some right here on this forum) who breed, raise, train, and title their own dogs. No sleight of hand there, you can go to the trials and see them for yourself. These are dogs bred, born, raised, trained and titled by the same person who knows their bloodlines inside and out. These are the people you should be working with!

Anyone doing the important work of breeding and training service dogs must realize the importance of first-hand experience with the breeding stock, as you say. Rather than keeping your breeding program secret, perhaps you should open up and share with other experienced breeder/trainers your findings, what was successful and what was not, and why... these breeders who breed, raise, train and title their own stock will probably be able to help you tremendously with your program, even shave years off your ultimate goal.
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Old 12-31-2012, 10:49 PM   #32 (permalink)
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but your goals have no meaning for the work that you are doing??

and how are you going to prove this ??

I think it was codmaster who asked about whether a service dog could be the same dog that does schutzhund -- remember back in the day post WW 1 the wounded soldiers did come back and did use their own dogs , trained for SchH (of the day) for assistance dogs. GSD were pressed into service to be ambulance dogs, messenger dogs, draught and hauling dogs .

And as to von Stephanitz --- he was actually not a good breeder -- he never produced anything near as good as the original owner of Hektor L / Horand G . His primary role was an observant documentor and outstanding leader and organizer .
He may not have been a good breeder (way before my time) but from what I understand he was the one that originally proposed a breed standard to the SV and it was later modified and modified again.

Back in the day, you had a heck of a lot more ballence in the breed then you do today.
My goals with breeding have meaning to me personally. My personal feelings and views are really pointless in breeding till I accomplish the goal I set.

I am cooking right now.... I tell you it will taste great but you really are not going to know for sure till it is ready to be served and you take your first bite for yourself.

I am not looking for recognition for my breeding at this time. When I have accomplished my goal, I can base my claim on more facts than theory. I will have the finish product as well that will be more than enough proof for me.

Last edited by SFGSSD; 12-31-2012 at 10:52 PM. Reason: missed a question
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Old 12-31-2012, 11:14 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Where are you buying your breeding stock? From brokers?

I know several breeders (some right here on this forum) who breed, raise, train, and title their own dogs. No sleight of hand there, you can go to the trials and see them for yourself. These are dogs bred, born, raised, trained and titled by the same person who knows their bloodlines inside and out. These are the people you should be working with!

Anyone doing the important work of breeding and training service dogs must realize the importance of first-hand experience with the breeding stock, as you say. Rather than keeping your breeding program secret, perhaps you should open up and share with other experienced breeder/trainers your findings, what was successful and what was not, and why... these breeders who breed, raise, train and title their own stock will probably be able to help you tremendously with your program, even shave years off your ultimate goal.
I do not buy from "brokers". What I am looking for more than anything requires a lot of searching and evaluating litters hands on. The line itself is not as important as the genetic recessive traits in temperament and you cannot see that on paper with confidence. I could say the Von Der Urbecke line is great! But I may only be pulling certain minimal traits from that line so is it great or is it not? Am I looking to reproduce the best from that line? No, I am looking to accomplish MY goals and this line may have a piece of the puzzle that I need.

I am sure you do know breeders that would be happy to demonstrate the workability of their lines. I suspect these breeders are Working line breeders. Most of them would not have a problem showing you the workability in their lines. It is the working/show or show lines that you are more than likely to have and issue. Domestically as well as Imports.

I would love to be introduced to the breeders you know. If we could help each other that would be great! Thank you
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Old 12-31-2012, 11:19 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I do not buy from "brokers". What I am looking for more than anything requires a lot of searching and evaluating litters hands on. The line itself is not as important as the genetic recessive traits in temperament and you cannot see that on paper with confidence. .............
Now i am really confused - would't the line of dogs in the pedigree be a great indication of the recessive traits - esp. if one can look at like representatives of the "line".

I am assuming here that you are refering to the pedigrees and "line-breeding" rather than the very nebulos term of "Working" or "Show" of course.
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Old 12-31-2012, 11:50 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Now i am really confused - would't the line of dogs in the pedigree be a great indication of the recessive traits - esp. if one can look at like representatives of the "line".

I am assuming here that you are refering to the pedigrees and "line-breeding" rather than the very nebulos term of "Working" or "Show" of course.
Yes and no. If this was the case, the gap between working and show lines would have been closed a long time ago with ease from the first breeder that attempted a good interracial breeding.
As I said the most common attempt at this is an interracial breeding. This does not produce favorable results. You need to slowly breed back in what was breed out till you have a temperament that closely matched what you want to improve on from the other end creating a more solid recessive trait from a temperament standpoint while keeping the conformation traits as well. There is a lot to this and I do not wish to post any more on this subject publicly at this time. Perhaps we or one of the breeders you know can talk about this off line.
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Old 01-01-2013, 01:00 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Yes and no. Nice clear answer.
If this was the case, the gap between working and show lines would have been closed a long time ago with ease from the first breeder that attempted a good interracial breeding.
As I said the most common attempt at this is an interracial breeding. Interracial? What the heck are you taslking about? What are the "RACES" you are referring to here??
This does not produce favorable results. What are the "favorable results"?
You need to slowly breed back in what was breed (bred?) out till you have a temperament that closely matched what you want to improve on from the other end creating a more solid recessive trait from a temperament standpoint while keeping the conformation traits as well.
HUH?

There is a lot to this and I do not wish to post any more on this subject publicly at this time. Don't blame you for this! Probably the best thing for everyone. Maybe come back when you have some actual results with a litter of dogs that are trained and titled in ScH, HgH, and are working as a service dog or maybe a Seeing Eye dog in the field. Then I for one would be convinced that you know what you are talking about.

Perhaps we or one of the breeders you know can talk about this off line.
Until then, good luck!
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Old 01-01-2013, 02:26 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Until then, good luck!
If you do not understand what I am talking about, I am sorry, I do not have time to write it all down and explain it to you. But letís start with this: An interracial breeding is breeding a GSD from a solid show line to a GSD from a solid working line. What does this produce that is not favorable to me? It produces a dog that is either to aggressive or afraid of its own shadow. I asked to speak with you or your breeding friends twice. But it seems you are looking for clear answers that I am not willing to provide publicly at this time and I made this clear 12 posts ago. I am not looking to argue with anyone about what I am doing, and how. But you continue to push it. Have I succeeded to my satisfaction on this? NO, and it is a work in progress. BTW one pup form my last litter IS in fact being trained as a Seeing Eye dog, another from the same litter is being trained as a Mobility Service Dog for someone wheelchair bound and they both are doing great! Thank you for the well wishes on this. Iíll let you know when I have succeeded to my satisfaction never mind yours. Till then you may want to brush up on some terminology. And please excuse the typo, I have had quite a few tonight! Happy New Year!
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Old 01-01-2013, 02:32 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Hi thanks for the Welcome! Sorry my website was not easy on the eyes. PTSD dogs DO work! Do you have experience training working dogs? If not, do you have help form a professional working dog trainer or SD org? What tests did you or the breeder use to determine that the puppy you purchased was a good Service Dog candidate? Also, please read my response to another member in this thread in regards to cost of Service Dogs and how it is broken down.
I understand the breakdown of the cost, which is why I am doing it on my own. The VA is quick to diagnose and shove pill bottles your way with little to no aftual effect other than masking and possibly addicting you to pills. I wish they would perscribe trained dogs because the truth is they help better than any other medication I have taken! (I currently do not take ANY meds daily and one on an as needed basis and this is without Hero being fully trained, just having him has helped) I have NO experience in training and currently am just doing classes with a local trainer in group, we completed kindegarten and in two weeks start basic ob. The trainer goes into CGC and therapy work eventually if you choose that path which I will. I also want to do some agility for the benefit of the dog. As far as picking the puppy, there were no tests really that I know of, we had a bad experience with the breeder and do not speak with them at all! My biggest problem is training hero at home in between classes. I never know what to work on or how to get the desired effect. Most times I feel he is smarter than me and knows what I want almost before I ask him to do it. He has mastered sit, lay, and a short stay. He knows his name and has decent recall (FAR from perfect) I can take him to an unfenced park and throw a ball without fear of him taking off. We are currently working on the sit and lay while mide stride walking. He has a tough time with this because he is soooooooo excited he loves to play! He thinks all time is play time. Thanks for your response and happy new year!
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Old 01-01-2013, 02:50 AM   #39 (permalink)
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If you do not understand what I am talking about, I am sorry, I do not have time to write it all down and explain it to you.
Please don't be sorry - it must just be my own inexperience and ignorance that makes it tough for me to understand your advanced topics and approach to breeding nearly perfect GSD's.

But letís start with this: An interracial breeding is breeding a GSD from a solid show line to a GSD from a solid working line. What does this produce that is not favorable to me? It produces a dog that is either too aggressive or afraid of its own shadow.

You mean that every time a breeder tries to breed a WL to a SL dog this will only produce dogs that are too aggresive or are fearful? WOW! I did not realize that and would never have believed it.

I must tell the folks that I know who might be thinking of breeding their SL female NOT to try to introduce a great WL ScH3 V rated stud to their SL female as they certainly do not want any puppies that are too aggressive or worse too fearful!

Would you recommend that they breed their reasonably temperamented SL female to a SL stud dog who clearly doesn't have or throw as sound a temperament as the WL stud dog?

I asked to speak with you or your breeding friends twice. But it seems you are looking for clear answers that I am not willing to provide publicly at this time

Can't say I blame you for not wanting to give away your obviously successful approach (you did say that you have successful litters on the ground, didn't you? I don't recall what you said about the current results that you have had)

and I made this clear 12 posts ago. I am not looking to argue with anyone about what I am doing, and how. But you continue to push it. Have I succeeded to my satisfaction on this? NO, and it is a work in progress. BTW one pup form my last litter IS in fact being trained as a Seeing Eye dog, another from the same litter is being trained as a Mobility Service Dog for someone wheelchair bound and they both are doing great!
That sounds great! And others from the litter has gotten their ScH/IPO title or at least is in heavy training as well?
Thank you for the well wishes on this. Iíll let you know when I have succeeded to my satisfaction never mind yours. Till then you may want to brush up on some terminology.
I will certainly try to "brush up on my terminalogy. Could you give me a few resources that will help me in this?

And please excuse the typo, I have had quite a few tonight! Happy New Year!

Guess you may have made up your own terms, huh? Maybe you need to use your own definitions of terms since your program does seem new and innovative. I truly have never heard any other breeder, (including many of the most successful ones in the US) use the term "interacial" to describe breeding a WL to a SL GSD!
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Old 01-01-2013, 03:26 AM   #40 (permalink)
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I have NO experience in training and currently am just doing classes with a local trainer in group. As far as picking the puppy, there were no tests really that I know of, we had a bad experience with the breeder and do not speak with them at all! My biggest problem is training hero at home in between classes. I never know what to work on or how to get the desired effect. Thanks for your response and happy new year!
OK, I have good news for you and potentially some bad news.
First the good news: There are owner training programs out there for Service Dogs. They also have professionals in the Service Dog industry that will evaluate your dog to make sure you have a solid candidate for Service Dog work. I strongly suggest that you look into this in your area.
The bad news: In Spite of what a lot of owner trainers think, not all dogs are suitable for Service Dog work for one reason or another. Washout rates in professional Service Dog facilities have been as high as 45%. Most of this is due to a lot of them throwing everything against the wall to see what sticks. Ones that evaluate their pups and only move forward with the pups that pass the evaluation the rate is usually under 20%. Service dog training is expensive for owner trainer as well. You are putting a lot of time effort and energy into a dog that might not make a suitable Service Dog. This tends to be emotionally wrenching for the disabled handler and in spite of clear signs that the dog is not suitable, they continue with them with a blind eye because they LOVE the dog and there heart eclipses clear disqualifying factors. Even if a dog passes the evaluation, there is no guarantee that the dog will make it but your odds are a heck of a lot better than going it without knowing for sure if you have a good candidate to begin with.
Before you move any further with this, I strongly suggest that you have your dog evaluated and seek help from a professional Service or Working dog trainer or facility that has an owner training program that will give you homework and clear direction if this dog passes the evaluation.
I wish you the best! Happy New Year!
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