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Old 12-31-2012, 01:44 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Other than the white on blue for all the reading I did hurting my eyes I really like your site! It helped me confirm my choice to purchase my own puppy and train with him on our own. I really like what you guys do and wish I had that type of money but that is no where near my budget! Hero was picked up at 8 weeks old and has been with us ever since. I have been diagnosed with several things upon returning from Afghanistan of them being PTSD, and I am here to tell you (even untrained) just having him at the house, and around me has helped me tremendously! I sleep better, i have less panic attacks, and I feel safe! PTSD DOGS WORK!! I can't imagine how much better it would be if I had a fully trained dog but that is half the fun I think. Welcome to the forums!!
Hi thanks for the Welcome! Sorry my website was not easy on the eyes. PTSD dogs DO work! Do you have experience training working dogs? If not, do you have help form a professional working dog trainer or SD org? What tests did you or the breeder use to determine that the puppy you purchased was a good Service Dog candidate? Also, please read my response to another member in this thread in regards to cost of Service Dogs and how it is broken down.
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Old 12-31-2012, 01:45 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Littermates may go on to do SchH, It is the bloodlines show the trainability in the titles in this sense. (However these days (sadly) with the abundance of "paper titles" you need to be very careful in selection from some lines to be sure what you are getting) SchH is a sport that I personally believe can be done with a Service Dog but I do not advise novice/inexperienced trainers to attempt it with a Service Dog.
I am not as experienced as you and many others on this forum are, but I think it would be a truly unusual and rare individual dog who could be a success on the ScH field and also be a sucess as a service dog, i.e. Seeing eye dog or medical alert dog.

Would you also say that the same dog could function as a K9 or military patrol dog and then also do service dog work?

If so, would you know of any individual dogs that are doing both kinds of work?

Even with a really good trainer for both! I am assuming that you do say that they would need a different trainer for each? Or can a single trainer also train a single dog to do both types of work?

Just doesn't seem like a single dog could be suited to do both - sort of like a single human being being a top notch CEO of a major corporation and also an inner city councillor to disadvantaged youth or maybe a priest.

I think the the GSD as a breed can do all kinds of work, but an individual dog who can do both is truly an exceptional representative of our breed.

And if you are breeding whole litters in which the individual puppies could just go to different homes and be trained to do any type of the great variety of jobs - then you are to be applauded greatly.

And asked to pass along your secrets to other breeders as well.
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Old 12-31-2012, 02:17 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Terry , welcome !

This is going to be interesting having you here to add to the discussion on working GSD, not a line, but a performance outside of sport .

I have had several certified dogs - including one for a person with Lou Gehrigs, another with MS , another with visual impairment , Guide dogs , emotional support and do have one that will be certified (when old enough) , for a veteran with PTSD .
On the forum we frequently get questions from people who actually have the need for a service dogs wanting to just go and buy a dog and train the dog for themselves . This included a dog for and by a person with legal blind definition .

Selection is all important .

I am wondering who your Dad , your mentor and inspiration was ?
You are correct, selection is VERY important! I do not recommend someone going out picking up a dog and training it with aspirations to be a Service Dog without professional help or if they are not an experienced working dog trainer. Actual performance of the dog in this capacity tends to be more emotionally driven than anything when this happens. This is a dangerous combination for both the disabled person as well as the public.
My mentor, motivation, and reasons for doing this were my father. CSGM Francis X McCormack CDT, he passed away in 1998 due to complications from diabetes. We originally were going to do this together as a hobby for him during his retirement and a career for me. He spent a total of 32 years active duty with the Army. During that time he trained MWD’s, MP-K9 as well as trained privately with the SV in Germany as a handler and teaching agitator/decoy (40’ and 50’s) he also worked closely with the Maryland State Police in the early 60’s training Police K9.
My apprenticeship was challenging to say the least. Not only was he my mentor, he was also my Father. Making mistakes when I was young came with slightly greater consequences, but I would not trade a minute of the hands on training I received from my Father with the more common book knowledge learning seen today in trainers.
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Old 12-31-2012, 02:36 PM   #24 (permalink)
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The lines we are using are not advertised publicly. What I can say is that these dogs come from West German working/show line litters SV and or USCA or AKC pedigree showing working titles, clear HD/ED along with show and KKL rating at least 4 generations back.
So you are keeping your bloodlines "secret"? Why?

Why is a show rating important to your program?

I assume you are crossing German show and working lines. It would be of service to the GSD community as a whole to share your experience with these "cross" litters, as there have been mixed reviews of such crosses.
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Old 12-31-2012, 02:58 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I am not as experienced as you and many others on this forum are, but I think it would be a truly unusual and rare individual dog who could be a success on the ScH field and also be a sucess as a service dog, i.e. Seeing eye dog or medical alert dog.

Would you also say that the same dog could function as a K9 or military patrol dog and then also do service dog work?

If so, would you know of any individual dogs that are doing both kinds of work?

Even with a really good trainer for both! I am assuming that you do say that they would need a different trainer for each? Or can a single trainer also train a single dog to do both types of work?

Just doesn't seem like a single dog could be suited to do both - sort of like a single human being being a top notch CEO of a major corporation and also an inner city councillor to disadvantaged youth or maybe a priest.

I think the the GSD as a breed can do all kinds of work, but an individual dog who can do both is truly an exceptional representative of our breed.

And if you are breeding whole litters in which the individual puppies could just go to different homes and be trained to do any type of the great variety of jobs - then you are to be applauded greatly.

And asked to pass along your secrets to other breeders as well.
It takes a very special temperament in a dog and impeccable balance to do both, not only from the dog, it also takes a very experienced trainer. Keep in mind that SchH is a game and a sport both by definition and in the mind of the dog. The other disciplines are really not… like Police K9, I would not be going to that extreme especially these days with the more common temperaments out there. Not only that it is really unfair and overworking/stressing a good majority of dogs.
To answer your question can some do it? Yes, are some doing it? Yes, but those dogs are definitely few and far between. Could an average disabled handler or an inexperienced trainer do it? It is doubtful and not recommended as associative behaviors can be difficult to spot for an inexperienced trainer and can have major consequences in attempting this.
Service Dogs are intended to be for one person... The disabled handler and the job it was intended for. Going beyond that in that capacity should be left to professional handlers... Like some disclaimers say: Don't try this at home
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Old 12-31-2012, 03:27 PM   #26 (permalink)
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So you are keeping your bloodlines "secret"? Why?

Why is a show rating important to your program?

I assume you are crossing German show and working lines. It would be of service to the GSD community as a whole to share your experience with these "cross" litters, as there have been mixed reviews of such crosses.
To put it simply I would rather not serve the meal till it is completely cooked. Blood lines are really not as important as what is being produced out of these blood lines. Just because it comes from XYZ blood line does not necessarily guarantee that you will get what the top performer in that line was. It is a complex formula that goes beyond blood lines alone. While I am close to producing the finished product, and what I am producing is going in that direction, I am not going to say that I have done it to my satisfaction at this point. When it is complete, the years of research and ‘how” we got there will be available to the public… Just not yet.
Show ratings are also important as I do not want to steer away from any aspect of the complete GSD. Outright crossing or (interracial breeding) has produced bad results. The more common result of this breeding is a dog that is too aggressive and or afraid of its own shadow not to mention various conformation and structure problems.
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Old 12-31-2012, 04:12 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Thanks again for the Welcome and the intrest in what I do. I will be on the boards piriodically but if you need something like a question answered right away. Please feel fee to contact me through my website. Saint Francis German Shepherd Service Dogs Thank you
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Old 12-31-2012, 04:22 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I am always sceptical and suspicious of "special" secretive information . Either something can stand the exposure of daylight and be examined, stand to be challenged, or appreciated and adopted.

On the web site there is a list " Our puppies come with the traditional German SV standard Elite papers showing verified working titles, show ratings and breed surveys that can be traced at least 4 generations back in the blood line.
but so do hundreds and hundreds of other pups offered on the pedigree data base . It is pretty much part of the SV prior to breeding .

again "Along the way, however, the breed of German Shepherd Dog split to the point that it is next to impossible to find a true working dog that will get a VA rating in showif this is so , then
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Old 12-31-2012, 05:16 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I am always sceptical and suspicious of "special" secretive information . Either something can stand the exposure of daylight and be examined, stand to be challenged, or appreciated and adopted.

On the web site there is a list " Our puppies come with the traditional German SV standard Elite papers showing verified working titles, show ratings and breed surveys that can be traced at least 4 generations back in the blood line.
but so do hundreds and hundreds of other pups offered on the pedigree data base . It is pretty much part of the SV prior to breeding .

again "Along the way, however, the breed of German Shepherd Dog split to the point that it is next to impossible to find a true working dog that will get a VA rating in show if this is so , then
An astute observation! Without pointing fingers at anyone or any group specifically I will say this: Integrity has been lacking from both sides of the spectrum.
While there are many that claim their dog or the parents have SchH 1, 2 or 3 title and have the paperwork to prove it.. The dog proves otherwise. I have personally seen documented SchH 3 dogs that do not know what a dumbbell is (SAD, AND A VERY REAL PROBLEM). Likewise KKL1 and or VA rated dogs that would raise an eyebrow of even the inexperienced GSD owner.
The proof is in the pudding these days. You MUST meet the dogs and see them work for yourself to be certain those titles are valid. It is sad that these things happen, these things were once just isolated incidences, and sadly it is more common for some breeders to have dogs with paper titles these days.
I tell friends and people that ask: If the breeder says the parents have titles, ask to not only see the parents but also have them demonstrate these dogs working exercises they needed to perform to obtain these titles. Usually a SchH 1 OB routine request is enough to make those breeders choke up with excuses… then you know enough to head for the hills. Working line dogs you really need to have someone with you that is well versed in GSD conformation.
I don't have anything I can call "special" at this point. At least special enough to brag about no matter how close I am to bridging the gap between working and show lines... They are GSD's with great conformation (Show looks) and have a little more drive and stronger nerve than the typical West German show line GSD. When I can say “I got a dog that will work as good as the best working line GSD’s, is VA1 and will win the BSP” then I’ll have something to brag about. Till then, all I can just say is that I am moving in that direction.
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Old 12-31-2012, 05:30 PM   #30 (permalink)
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but your goals have no meaning for the work that you are doing??

and how are you going to prove this ??

I think it was codmaster who asked about whether a service dog could be the same dog that does schutzhund -- remember back in the day post WW 1 the wounded soldiers did come back and did use their own dogs , trained for SchH (of the day) for assistance dogs. GSD were pressed into service to be ambulance dogs, messenger dogs, draught and hauling dogs .

And as to von Stephanitz --- he was actually not a good breeder -- he never produced anything near as good as the original owner of Hektor L / Horand G . His primary role was an observant documentor and outstanding leader and organizer .
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