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Sudden reaction - 100%Recall

13K views 171 replies 20 participants last post by  Chip18 
#1 ·
Hello everybody.

I have 11 months old GSD female, named Kaja. We are doing BH course and we are almost finished. She is one of the best in class, we did some testing and she is suitable for IPO. We are also doing a volunteer work and she is always calm.

When training in school we have a 100% recall - but we are not playing with dogs, we do the recall in a line, someone is holding your dog and you call the dog... On a walk, if there is no dog around I can have her off leash, she will come to me anytime I want. I give her a big reward, I play with her, release her again that she knows that coming to me is not a punishment ...

Let's explain some history. When I got her, she wasn't socialized, afraid of everything, after A LOT of socialization, she started trusting the other dogs. We worked on that, she became very obedient, not lunging playfully to other dogs...
So yeah, Kaja was pretty much the perfect dog, except of recall when playing with other dogs, I asked my trainer and he told me to get her on long leash, go play with other dogs and then train the recall.

Today it suddenly got much worse and I am crying while typing this... What the **** just happened? It fells like I have that young puppy again, not knowing what is right or wrong.

We were on a walk, she was off leash, till I saw a small cavalier dog in front of us and I got her on leash. She came to me, even when she saw the dog and walk on heal no problem, with perfect attention on me. The other owner had his dog off leash, and when the small dog saw Kaja he was fixated on her for couple of seconds ... finally he went after his owner and 'disappeared' behing her and some other objects and trees. I released Kaja, obviously too soon, I trusted her because she didn't do that for about 6 months... And then it happened, the reaction. She smelled the other dog on the floor and ran after him. Owner started yelling on her, kicking her away...

I'm not mad on her or the other owner because of that. It was obviously not his or Kaja's fault, but ONLY MINE! Don't get me wrong, I totally judge myself, cause I am one of the people that has dogs off leash with not trained recall or any basics in general. It was very often that people saw me and decided not to put their dogs on leash ... In my defense, I didn't want that to happen! I ran after Kaja, cause she wasn't in any way responsive to my call. Dogs started to play, but the other owner was so angry, he started calling me something that this forum will obviously censure, telling me to start teaching my dog... I tried to explain that she is going to school and that I am very sorry, I was really trying to make amends cause I would be angry too... And then he kicked Kaja, while cursing him ... and I snapped and attacked him. I give him a slap :/ I don't know what happened to me, I just wanted to protect my dog. If I don't kick her after a reaction like this, who is he, to kick my dog...

I'm not proud of what I did. I'm not proud on myself cause I trusted Kaja too much.

So I am asking for ANY advice what really happened, cause I don't understand what the **** was going on in Kaja's head.

Also, how to minimize those kind of reaction and teach Kaja a proper recall, no mater what.
 
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#2 ·
If I'm not mistaking, this is absolutely normal - a stage in their life. Kaja is becoming a teenager. Did you listen your parent much when you were in your teens?:)

I had exactly the same experience. Luckily we were in an off-leash park and his recall used to be 100% - then he went after his playmate that we met on that day and doesn't matter what I tried, he wouldn't come and just looked at me like "yeah, you'll love me anyways and I'm just gonna try this one thing..." turns around and keeps running after that other dog. Needless to say we stopped going to the park (for many reasons actually, mostly - irresponsible owners) until the recall improves.

From what I understand, what you thought was 100% recall - it wasn't that. Kaja was just a puppy who is attached to you and you were making this sound that yielded some happy reward. The time came when teenager curiosity takes over and they want to explore the world while "bending" some rules.
Don't be hard on her or yourself, just keep practicing recall on the leash (get a 15 or 25' leash). Sit/Stay, walk away, recall - not a bad routine to practice it. Do it everywhere and anywhere. Keep repeating every day many times a day. Work slowly from quieter places and up to where there is a heavy foot traffic with tons of distractions. Keep in mind that they don't have associative thinking like we do. If you practice recall near your house and you do fine, at the end of the street by a different house - it's already a different setting, different to them, and a different kind of distraction. The more variety your introduce to recall, the more reliable it will be. In off-leash parks in our area there is always some smaller fenced in area for training purposes (and for smaller dogs i think). Use something like that to practice recall with other dogs around. Just keep practicing it and you'll get there. Only it will never be 100% full proof, so still be careful and mindful, and always have a backup plan (some SUPER exciting treat, toy, sound and etc.) to get her back if she doesn't respond to the normal recall.

Good luck and keep it all light and fun:).
 
#4 ·
First I must say... I am not an agressive person. This reaction was new too me. I guess I just wanted him to stop kicking Kaja.
So please, I don't want to hear comments like: "Kaja is like that, because you are etc..."
This is not my usual behavior and so is not Kaja's. We use positive training with collar and leash correction when needed.


Don't be hard on her or yourself, just keep practicing recall on the leash (get a 15 or 25' leash). Sit/Stay, walk away, recall - not a bad routine to practice it. Do it everywhere and anywhere. Keep repeating every day many times a day. Work slowly from quieter places and up to where there is a heavy foot traffic with tons of distractions. Keep in mind that they don't have associative thinking like we do. If you practice recall near your house and you do fine, at the end of the street by a different house - it's already a different setting, different to them, and a different kind of distraction. The more variety your introduce to recall, the more reliable it will be.
This is how we trained a recall anyway. We did it from the moment I brought her home. I have my 10m leash, and to the moment I wasn't completely sure, that she knows what a recall means in any places, she was on the leash. Then I started trusting her, without leash - except when dogs around, to prevent stuff like that. It never looked like that she'll do something like that, and when I took the leash off, she was obedient, calm, not running after dog backwards.
To me, she knows what a recall is, she came on her first call.
I knew we still had problems when playing with other dogs, but I said to myself we're gonna work on that too and that until then, I can't tell myself that is a 100% recall. Now it fells like a step backwards, I'm gonna have her on long leash again.


As for running after Kaja - I know that you should not calling her aggressively, running after her. I tried to call her calmly, with a toy in my hand, moving backwards, but she was determined to run to this dog. Well then I heard screaming of the other owner, and I ran to the Kaja, to prevent something serious.

Well, the rest you know.

Thank you guys for all the comments.
 
#3 ·
Advise - control yourself - that should help overall. As it stands you can be charged with battery or something similar for hitting the other person. A quick appology and move on. No point in lengthy explanations when someone is angry. So far as your dog - often chasing after them only enhances their tendency to run. The "moving on" probably would have helped here, too.

However, it looks like you survived, your dog is no worse for it. Recall from engaging with another dog - that's difficult. Prevention here would be the key - that is recall before engagement. But I think you would have had a better response if you had kept moving & kept it light (I have a hunch that recall had some tension in it...)
 
#5 ·
I would forget about it. As long as there are no charges pressed for battery then chalk it up as a learning experience. I wouldn't feel bad for slapping someone who kicked my dog simply because my dog ran towards them and then started playing with his dog. Sounds like the guy was a d**k. I thought my dog had a perfect recall also until recently we were at the place where I got him from as a pup. He was playing with his brother and I tried to call him and he looked at me and ran off. I just waited until he was close enough to grab and called him again. Obviously different circumstances and you didn't have that option. But at least for me I realized the same as you it isn't 100%. Another thing I realized is that since I thought it was 100% I stopped working on it as much as I should have been. So we work on it daily again. Now if I know we're gonna be somewhere where a 100% recall is needed I make him wear his e-collar. With that on his recall is 100% simply because I can enforce it from a distance.
 
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#6 ·
I'm so sorry his happened to you and Kaja! Obviously the gentleman over reacted as well, especially if the dogs were obviously playing and enjoying themselves... Self control is most definitely important, however, someone kicked my dogfor no reason, I cannot guarantee an appropriate response from myself would occur (or maybe it would be appropriate).. Let's be honest, there is not really (wish I had italics) a 100% anything.. There is always a possibility for error which is human/animal.. At 11mos, consistency you once thought was perfect decays a bit as the dog flexes their new independent muscles and thoughts. They too are subject to teenage angst, which is usually at the least appropriate time..

Try not to fret. If the gentleman didn't call the police right then, or suddenly have a melt down, he probably realized he had over reacted and might get in trouble (deserved) for kicking your dog. Go back to practicing the recall and stage scenarios that will tempt your youngster and try and proof his obedience. Don't beat yourself up! Everybody and I do mean EVERYBODY makes a poor choice at times, and usually you don't know it was poor until the incident occurs.. Hang in there and take a deep breath and let it go :)
 
#7 ·
Hmm ... to much too soon! Sorry but your over the top reaction to your dog being assaulted ... perfectly normal! That's not where the "problem" lies. The "fault" lay in letting her get into that postilion in the first place.

You expected to much to soon, without proper ground work and proofing. If a dog does not have "absolutely" solid 100% recall, then they should not be off leash, period, end of story!

The next best thing to a solid recall is a solid "Down" or "Stay!" If you recall your dog the dog has to first ... Stop doing what they are doing??? Turn around and come to you. Lot of "choices??" I train "Stay" and "Down" first, I can "Stop" my dog in his tracks and I go to Him/Her if need be. There is nothing for the dog to "think" about, Stay means Stay and Down means Down!


I work on recall as an aside. And they stay on a long line "until" they have a Solid Recall. Training a Down /Stay looks like this:



Train that, do that on a long line, do random Stays, then Downs. Add distractions, train "Place" to "Proof" with "distractions." Or there is the "KMODT" you can get the Book on Amazon. Fully off leash trained in 10 to 12 weeks. I can't give a time line myself for "off leash" as it's something I never concerned myself with??


The Koehler Method of Dog Training, koehlerdogtraining.com Home
 
#8 · (Edited)
Chip HELLO again <3


Kaja knows how to stay in standing position and lie down position. We can run or walk slowly, I can just say DOWN and she will instantly lie down and I can pass by without looking at her or stopping. No mater if there is a distraction. She can lie down no problem up to 10 minutes, even if I'm not near her, she will not get up and run to other dogs, even if they walk pass her. We train this daily with no problems.
So if I 'calm her' down before her reaction, she is perfectly fine and obedient. So thank you for the video, but I don't think I need it, cause Kaja knows how to do that. I can do a video if you want to. But I'll tried to do that with recall combination as you suggested.

Why is Kaja's reaction a surprise to me? Before yesterday I could say that she had a very good progress on self control.
If I do everything right, before this reaction, Kaja will NOT snap like that. She had that problem when she was younger, it was driving me crazy (you must remember :D), but after some proper training, those reactions stopped. She can see the dog and before she starts running to it, she will come to me when I ask, momentarily. So problems starts, when she starts RUNNING! Then she don't hear anything.

Problem is that I don't know why she turned and started running to the other dog. This is the first thing it is not clear to me... I released her soooo many times, when the dog was behind us, she could even see the dog and not run to it... Why now? I can't figure I out, why was this situation so different, that she needed to in that second, run to the other dog. What did I do wrong?

As for second question - How to stop her, when she is already running, cause NOTHING works when she is already stalking the prey. I believe, that in this moment, I can say COME, STAY, DOWN ... and she would not listen to me. The pray drive seems to be too much for her. So if I say in other way - if she'll see a cat and start running to her... HOW TO STOP HER when running? Cause she can see a cat, and not react, I say heal if she is near me or come if she walks away from me, and everything will be ok. If I let her stalk the pray, there is no way, she would turn and come to me.




As for too much too soon, everything was perfectly fine for 6 months. When do you think is not too soon, to not have this kind of reactions? I will have her on leash every second, cause I don't trust her anymore.
 
#19 ·
Chip HELLO again <3


Kaja knows how to stay in standing position and lie down position. We can run or walk slowly, I can just say DOWN and she will instantly lie down and I can pass by without looking at her or stopping. No mater if there is a distraction. She can lie down no problem up to 10 minutes, even if I'm not near her, she will not get up and run to other dogs, even if they walk pass her. We train this daily with no problems.
So if I 'calm her' down before her reaction, she is perfectly fine and obedient. So thank you for the video, but I don't think I need it, cause Kaja knows how to do that. I can do a video if you want to. But I'll tried to do that with recall combination as you suggested.

Why is Kaja's reaction a surprise to me? Before yesterday I could say that she had a very good progress on self control.
If I do everything right, before this reaction, Kaja will NOT snap like that. She had that problem when she was younger, it was driving me crazy (you must remember :D), but after some proper training, those reactions stopped. She can see the dog and before she starts running to it, she will come to me when I ask, momentarily. So problems starts, when she starts RUNNING! Then she don't hear anything.

Problem is that I don't know why she turned and started running to the other dog. This is the first thing it is not clear to me... I released her soooo many times, when the dog was behind us, she could even see the dog and not run to it... Why now? I can't figure I out, why was this situation so different, that she needed to in that second, run to the other dog. What did I do wrong?

As for second question - How to stop her, when she is already running, cause NOTHING works when she is already stalking the prey. I believe, that in this moment, I can say COME, STAY, DOWN ... and she would not listen to me. The pray drive seems to be too much for her. So if I say in other way - if she'll see a cat and start running to her... HOW TO STOP HER when running? Cause she can see a cat, and not react, I say heal if she is near me or come if she walks away from me, and everything will be ok. If I let her stalk the pray, there is no way, she would turn and come to me.




As for too much too soon, everything was perfectly fine for 6 months. When do you think is not too soon, to not have this kind of reactions? I will have her on leash every second, cause I don't trust her anymore.
First part in bold:
It's not that it's "no matter if there is a distraction". I think this is the point that you are missing. True, there are distractions around, but nothing new to her that's why you have all her attention. If there is something new and very appealing - rest assured that Kaja will go after that. That's exactly why you shouldn't assume that the training is over and she "knows" commands. Not until she is much older and has seen it all (so to speak).

Second part in bold:
I wouldn't say that you did something wrong, you just assumed that she is perfect. They are animals, they don't speak our language and they have instincts. Maybe the dog has some new scent that she never smelled before. Maybe the dog's owner had some smell on him. At that distance scent is probably the only thing that made her run after the other dog.
Again, until she is much older and your recall is VERY reliable (notice - not 100%, but very) with a backup emergency recall, I wouldn't risk letting my baby off the leash. Next time there could be a bike or a car between the new enticing smell and you, and god forbid she may get injured as the result.


Third part in bold:
A backup recall? Train it with some super tasty treats that she gets ONLY when this emergency word is used and she comes. Even then may not be very reliable is the attention is already locked on the target (as you pointed out). When you see potential distractions around you, watch Kaja closer and her body language. If you notice it stiffened up - distract her before she locks on the target. This is one of the things that bugs me about off leash parks when we used to go - so many owners I see either talking to each other or staring at their phones. No, we should be there for them and watch them all the time. So many dog fights could have been avoided. It's just like with little children - mostly kids get hurt when parents don't pay attention and gossip around.

That's just my 2 cents:)

Sounds like you are doing everything right in training, just having high-ish expectations and a tiny bit too much trust maybe?
I just started taking private lessons with mine and will be working hard towards a well-controlled off-leash heel, but I don't know if I'll ever be comfortable enough to let my baby off the leash where there could be new distractions. He is just too precious to me to risk either an abusive psycho human being who may hit him for no good reason, or being hit by something, or run into a pothole or w/e. Until he is very old and just likes walking :)))
 
#9 ·
Oh and also - she didn't even looked excited to see the other dog. She had a perfect heal position, her attention was on me. The moment I released her, bam, she smelled something and started running like crazy.
 
#10 ·
It's sad that a person should even have to worry about being charged with anything over a frickin' slap. If someone started kicking my dogs, I'd gladly return the favor. People often forget that "treat people how you want to be treated" goes both ways; if someone acts like a jerk, they deserve to be treated as such. You definitely did not overstep.

..Anyway, as the previous posters have said, I wouldn't beat yourself up over it too much. You clearly know you made a mistake and have no problems owning up to it, which is more than I can say for most owners I see. Everyone and their mother has made some kind of mistake here or there at some point. We're only human after all.

Good luck with your dog.
 
#11 ·
This forum is so funny sometimes. So many threads on what to do if a dog comes after your GSD regarding using physical force to prevent the dog from reaching yours, but when an owner of a small dog uses physical force to keep a Shepherd away, it's not allowed? I know how my shepherds play and I wouldn't want a strange one playing with my Yorkie that way,things can escalate in a heartbeat so I ( like the OP) don't blame the other owner at all. And if a stranger slapped me, yes I would consider it a reason to call the police. Just know that you need to continue training for this, and don't trust any of your commands to be 100percent for a while. I like that you took ownership it's have hard to admit errors. talk to your trainer, live help is much better than the internet.
 
#13 ·
May I ask,

What your dog did when said person started kicking your dog?
What your dog did when you were in physical contact with a person who had just kicked your dog?

More training - More training - More training! Do you have people with dogs that you know that are willing to help you train in this area that won't kick your dog or verbally attack you? If so do it...
 
#16 ·
May I ask,

What your dog did when said person started kicking your dog?
What your dog did when you were in physical contact with a person who had just kicked your dog?

More training - More training - More training! Do you have people with dogs that you know that are willing to help you train in this area that won't kick your dog or verbally attack you? If so do it...
LOL outstanding ... first time I've ever seen that in print! :laugh2:
 
#14 ·
I don't have a problem with kicking a dog if he is attacking my dog.. But when the OP was profusely apologizing WHILE she proactively was getting her dog who wasn't hurting, but playing (and it seemed like I read the other dog was playing too) and the person kicks the dog.. Then yes, I have a problem with that... I have small dogs in the house and if I had to defend my dog due to an aggressive dog I will do what I have to do... Different situation with the OP then that.. Sounds like this guy was just irked that a dog was off leash and perhaps affecting the obedience of his dog.. An understandable irk, but not worthy of a kick...

Of course I wasn't there, but from the tone of the posts of the OP, if her dog was being aggressive to the other dog I don't think she would have been upset t the man kicking her dog to defend his.. This seemed an after the fact and a cheap shot... Just my thoughts
 
#15 ·


OP.... So the guy's dog was off leash as well??? That (at least in my city) makes both people at fault. There was not a dog attack, they were simply playing. If my dog ran to another dog off leash and started PLAYING and then the man kicked my dog, I would have more than slapped the man. A swift kick to the nuts would have been the least lol DONT FEEL BAD OR DOWN UPON YOURSELF! he was just as in the wrong. Enjoy your day and go give your pup a hug for me!
 
#18 ·
Crap happens ....figuring out why "that" happened is the real question here??

I think being an 11mos old is part answer to that question, lol..

Crap does happen. Our job is tor prevent it as much as is possible. Reality is, crap happens even to the best dog at the oddest moments.. Why? Because they are dog and it made sense to them at the time.. I find it hard to articulate why I sometimes do dumb stuff, lol!

In the end, practice, proof, practice, proof.. Rinse, repeat.. Forever.. Training and proofing never stops, but it gets more consistent as the dog leaves adolescent /teenage angst and moves into more adult mentality..
 
#21 ·
As everyone said, dogs will be dogs, stuff happens. Learn from mistakes and move on.

What I've found is I'm not always super smart when something sudden happens. The other day I was at an empty trail head letting my dogs out of the car for a hike when I saw them looking at something and a man walking a very reactive GSD popped into view. My first words were probably a garbled. bhlmm. I wasn't "prepared", I was looking at a map and thinking about my route, not focused on my dogs or the trail like I usually am when out with the dogs.

But my dogs are better at this drill than I am. Two came automatically, and the rest ran to me as soon as I came to my senses and called "here". None of them approached the strange dog. I then had them sit and stay until the shepherd was out of sight. I was proud of my dogs and ashamed of my moment of confusion.

But it took some focused work to get here. Not a lot of hours, but some clear communication using an e-collar in a way that does not make me reliant on pressing a button for compliance. Because, again, in an emergency I'll probably yell something like "here" or "hey" or "no" rather than be ready to fumble for a remote and press a bunch of buttons in quick succession.

Mistakes happen! The key is not allowing them to happen repeatedly and training to avoid a similar issue.

I went through a whole lot of positive only training, long line stuff, whistle work, really reliable recall manuals, but landed on the e-collar because I need both reliability and freedom for my dogs. It may not be the choice for everyone and it may not be necessary for everyone. Chip, for example, uses a slip-lead to the same result.

The key is introducing clarity to the recall or training and planning a course of action in an emergency scenario so you are likely to keep your head and use your training when faced with an "oops" moment. Learning to read your dog so you can correct almost as soon as the dog starts thinking about a chase, etc. help a lot as far as timing and clarity.

Also be very consistent. If you start from a young age correcting a dog for chasing or barking at strangers, etc. you can avoid doing much formal training in future around that as it'll be ingrained pretty strongly in the dog not to chase, etc. But even at older ages you can work toward that level of compliance. It just can be a bit more difficult.

As for slapping the guy, I don't think Slovenia is as sue-happy as USA, so I'm guessing you're in the clear. Around here, I'd be a bit careful escalating a dog issue to a human issue. But, results would vary based on the gender and relative size of the parties involved. Most men won't pursue action against a smaller woman for a slap.
 
#23 ·
.....
As for slapping the guy, I don't think Slovenia is as sue-happy as USA....
this made me chuckle.. lol. I don't think there is any country as sue-happy as the States. One of the guys I used to play pool with told me the story once. He was at a poolhall in Banff, and he is a joker kinda guy (loves to entertain, tell jokes, goof around). His opponent scratched so that one of the balls hit off the table and on the floor. The friend (naturally, being the funny guy) grabs his ankle and starts saying "oh my foot! my foot!". One of the other guys comes to him, gives him his business card and says "Hi, My name is so and so, I'm a lawyer and can provide my services if you decide to sue the pool hall". Needless to say he was a visitor from the States.

Other than that yes, like everyone keeps saying - dogs will be dogs, and it's our responsibility to find ways to communicate with them clearly and, above all, provide them with a safe environment.
 
#24 · (Edited)
Well, before I started typing this post, I asked myself :"Do I wanna tell the truth?" Because some people will just see the attack thing ... and obviously I'll be criticized.

1.) I don't attack guys on daily basis.
2) I don't approve that dogs run to other dogs and I would be angry too. But if everything is ok, if the owner would run like crazy to get the dog, apologizing almost in tears ... I would consider if being a jerk or just telling :"Keep him on leash, cause his self control isn't perfect" and walk away.
3) If anyone would be kicking my dog, after seeing that dogs are playing, after putting a leash on my dog when your dog is still off leash, playing with my dog and when you insult me it is actually YOUR dog that's not under control ... then I will kick and slap faces if I need to... I DON'T HIT MY DOG no mater what and nobody on this bloody earth, is allowed to. Kick me, call me anything you want, but don't touch my dog. It's not dog's fault anyway. It's was only MINE! And I was sorry the second I saw what Kaja did, I was sorry I trusted too much and expecting too much from an 11 months old GSD.


As for training - I will train my dog even more that's for sure. I'm not the one who forgets mistakes. I'm the one who learned from them and WILL FIX them as soon as possible. On Monday I have a training session with my trainer, he is a special trainer for police German shepherd and other sports dog, so OBVIOUSLY I wont just complain on the internet, ask complete strangers for helf and than do nothing. I will turn for help to the person I can actually call a trainer... But still I asked you guys, more stories - more examples and methods how to fix this problem. I am training her from the moment I got her, if you remember I wrote that she is currently training BH and she is one of the candidates for IPO. I don't have a dog as a souvenir. I will work with her to the moment I can be proud and my dog will be happy in a calm state of mind (and obviously to the moment our ways sadly separate).

I would like to thank mostly HappyGoLucky, Chip and Hineni7 and many others for their answers - that actually are one of possible solutions.
 
#25 ·
some people will just see the attack thing ... and obviously I'll be criticized.
Aww heck there are always gonna be some people! :)

Most likely "everyone" on here who has anything worth saying ,, has gotten beat up on here at some point?? I'm certainly speaking from experience there! :)

So open forum or not ... as my guy says .... "don't like the haters beat you down!"

It's a good thread and sharing experiences is what it's all about! We would not learn much if the only stories on here were "we went to the Dog Park today and nothing bad happened." Or for me "Rocky and I went for a walk today ...no stray dog encounters we ignored five people. He did great." :)
Good for me but not really noteworthy these days for him.

Sure most likely not your best moment but for lots of us, we view your situation as "extreme" provocation!

As we say in Boxer land ... Don't worry be happy!:

 
#29 ·
Helena,
Did your dog jump on him or his dog? If so, as much as I'd hate to see that happen, I can understand his response. If not, sounds like he got off easy with a slap as I'd hospitalize someone who kicked my dog repeatedly just because she got in his space.
As you know, your bad as she wasn't under leash or voice control. She's a puppy/teenager as is mine. Can't trust 'em. I started using and e-collar and it works, but I don't know if it's 100% reliable.
Almost every dog owner, including me, has had a bad experience with other dogs and people. I'm sure you'll learn from the experience and the anger will pass.
 
#31 ·
I think the owner of the small dog was worried about it getting hurt. One wrong step from your dog could mean a broken leg for his dog. You have no reason to be angry with a man protecting his dog. How would you feel if... oh, wait a minute.. that's right, you didn't like it when the shoe was put on the other foot.

Your dog is no way ready to be off leash with access to other people's pets, especially ones that she can harm, like this small dog. Keep her on a leash until she is reliable. Remember, poor judgment on your part can be the catalyst for dogs to be banned from parks or for stringent leash laws to be enacted. That is not fair to other owners of dogs who can, and do, control their dogs.

Did your dog commit some catastrophic infraction? No, but your actions were not socially acceptable under the circumstances either. Shameful!
 
#36 ·
I think many people are missing the point here. HelenaPog knows what she did was not good and no need to focus on that and continue shaming. It's far from being supportive and understanding.
Imho she is asking about Kaja and how to improve her recall and is trying to understand the reasons why she was not listening at the moment in time.

I too hope you don't leave the forum, there is a wealth of information here and everyone is super helpful.
 
#33 ·
I did tell the truth, from the beginning... 2 times till now..


Kaja started running like crazy too the dog, it looked scary that's for sure, she is not a small dog and he had a cavalier. Then Kaja came almost to the dog and went in to a playing position. Other dog was off leash, first a bit afraid and submissive, then after invitation to a game from Kaja, he started playing with her.

I came to Kaja, put her on leash, other dog was still off leash, jumping at Kaja playfully as I was trying to hold her and apologize to the other owner. I apologize like two or tree times, telling him that he has every right to be angry. Then he said that I need to train my dog, cause obviously my dog is not trained, then I told him I do train her, we go to school and I will try to prevent anything like this in the future and train her even harder...
Then he became angry even more, sort of like because his dog was playing with mine and was not afraid. I think he wanted to make some other speeches about how is his dog afraid and from this anger, Kaja was ON LEASH, ON HEAL WITH ME!!!!!, when he kicked her in her stomach with his leg, then he leaned over and pick his dog up, trying to calm it because his dog wanted to play with mine. When he kicked her he said to me :"Your a bitch and your dog is a retard - in Slovenian language: Prokleta prasica in tvoj glup pes".

Then I asked him:"Why did you do that", and I slapped him.
After that he was surprised, I explain that nobody without reason will kick my dog. Then he told me if she ever sees me again with my dog on this path walking, he will call the police and went away.

In any way, my reaction was wrong and I went to the police myself yesterday. I needed to pay 150€ and police drop charges over me, and I will not be sued, cause I came to the police myself.
 
#37 ·
Sorry I was simply asking what your dogs response was to being kicked. I have no reason not to believe your story not my point at all.

I wanted to know (your dogs reaction to being kicked) not what you did but what the dog did when it was kicked and when you slapped the person (threat) ie... dog growled, dog whimpered, dog ignored threat, dog pulled away, dog went at the person trying to bite, dog positioned self between myself and the threat etc... etc.... etc... as well as (your dogs reaction to you making physical contact with an obvious threat) in your very close proximity.

Sorry for any confusion! I wish you nothing but the best in your endeavors as well as your dog!:grin2:
 
#34 ·
Anyway I would like to ask an administrator to delete me from this forum.

I must say that from the begging I wanted to be honest with you guys, telling the whole story and I was expecting critics... I tried to tell that I'm ashamed of what I did but I still believe that kicking my dog was not necessary. Kaja wasn't biting anyone or jumping on anyone.

I just hopped that this topic will be more in a way to help me how to teach my dog something and not telling me all over what I did - cause I know it was wrong. If topic is going to be like that, I don't need to be a member to hear only critics, I'm the worst critic to myself.


I will not answer to this topic anymore. I would like to thank anyway that gave me advice for Kaja. Have a nice day.
 
#35 ·
I wish you wouldn't leave Helena.. In all truthfulness, you are the type of owner that should have a dog andaa GSD at that.. A mistake is made, you take ownership of said mistake which anyone , and probably most everyone has made (outside of maybe slapping someone ;)), you know more training and proofing is needed and plan on doing it.. Perfect!

Remember the internet is chaloffull of every type of person and they can alpost ifif they want to... Doesn't mean that there aren't many good peoplhere who want to see your success :) Please stay and continue to contribute.. Ignore the haters
 
#42 ·
I get charged by off leash but friendly dogs pretty often. I do not kick them or swear at their owners. Just yesterday I was running three of my dogs on leash and two dogs came into the road at us, barking but clearly not interested in attacking us. I waited until their young owners ran out to get their dogs. The owners called out an apology, I said, "that's OK, stuff happens, thanks for grabbing your dogs" and went on my way. I could have been a jerk and sworn at the girls, or told them I was going to call the police, or said they were lucky I didn't hurt their dogs. But why? I try to treat other people how I'd like them to treat me, and stuff happens!

I only aggress toward another dog if it is obviously out to hurt or attack mine. I will back other dogs down, but wouldn't hurt them unless they were out to hurt my dogs or me.

So, yes, Helena should have had her dog on a leash, live and learn. She ran over to apologize and control her dog, did control her dog, and then reacted when the man swore at her, ignored her apologies, and kicked her on-leash dog.

Yes, if the man had kicked her dog before Helena got control of it, I can't fault him. That's fine. But to continue to kick the dog after she was controlled, that is showing very poor temperament in the man, not the dog. Swearing at a woman after she's apologized and controlled her dog? Nah, I can't support that.
 
#48 ·
I get charged by off leash but friendly dogs pretty often. I do not kick them or swear at their owners. Just yesterday I was running three of my dogs on leash and two dogs came into the road at us, barking but clearly not interested in attacking us. I waited until their young owners ran out to get their dogs. The owners called out an apology, I said, "that's OK, stuff happens, thanks for grabbing your dogs" and went on my way. I could have been a jerk and sworn at the girls, or told them I was going to call the police, or said they were lucky I didn't hurt their dogs. But why? I try to treat other people how I'd like them to treat me, and stuff happens!

I only aggress toward another dog if it is obviously out to hurt or attack mine. I will back other dogs down, but wouldn't hurt them unless they were out to hurt my dogs or me.

So, yes, Helena should have had her dog on a leash, live and learn. She ran over to apologize and control her dog, did control her dog, and then reacted when the man swore at her, ignored her apologies, and kicked her on-leash dog.

Yes, if the man had kicked her dog before Helena got control of it, I can't fault him. That's fine. But to continue to kick the dog after she was controlled, that is showing very poor temperament in the man, not the dog. Swearing at a woman after she's apologized and controlled her dog? Nah, I can't support that.
LOL outstanding!!! :)

You Madam are a true example of how to behave when met with the unexpected "non threats!!" I can only envy your calm demeanor!! I also have never harmed a non threat encounter. :laugh2:

But that's as far as I can, I'm not big on the "issuing" friendly advise think! I tend to view charging out of control dogs as a personal affront!! And even with the worst encounters (two charging dogs, I slipped, "Daddy Down" while defending me ... "I got this ...Rocky stepped up un bid??" No dogs harm, remaining attacker rethought his life's choice and flat disappeared??

But even that freaking tool was met with a "Cold Hard Stare" and an icy "Control your freaking dogs!!" Voice of contempt! Not a friendly advice kinda guy, am I . :eek:

Nonetheless an excellent example of how to behave with non threats are you! A performance worthy of a Houndie!:



Outstanding, we should all strive for that kind of calm demeanor. :)
 
#49 ·
Like I said, you look like a one-way street: everything you do is right, and if someone disagrees with you, it's wrong. You attack me and Helen without knowing a single thing about either one, yet you call my posts bickering. Helen said that she knows now that it was too soon, learnt from it and will be doing even more training - how do you even call this irresponsible? Don't worry, I learnt my lesson and won't be commenting your posts anymore after this one.

Best of luck in your fight for rights!
 
#51 · (Edited)
Really? I came to this thread and stated my opinion and did not direct it to you, nor was it about you, and yet you accuse me of attacking you. Tell me how did you derive that conclusion? And no where did I attack OP, I just stated my opinion which was not a feel good response, but an honest one. Your problem with that is.....?
 
#56 ·
Hmmm! I was wondering... and tried like heck to get an answer.. To no avail!

AGE? I have a Bomber son that at 10 months old understood a threat clearly and would have put anyone raising their voice angrily manner towards me or advancing towards me without permission first (10' +/-) etc... etc.... in a instant state of severe kjgfhgfjhgfjggd! He he he he he.... he's an adult now and as good as gold!:|
 
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