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Heelwork Critique?

5K views 38 replies 12 participants last post by  DJEtzel 
#1 ·
So I'd like to get back into the swing of Heelwork with Patton. We took a little break to focus on other things (like dock diving and disc) but since the seasons are changing, I'd like to improve our heelwork finally.

I took this video on the fly last night. Wasn't planning a session, but he was pretty interested in doing something, so I put some treats in my pocket and hit record. Best session I've gotten out of him in a while, from my point of view!? I've never trained a formal heel on a dog before, so I'm a total newb when it comes to this.

Any help would be great. What to change/add/subtract.

 
#2 ·
I'm not being critical, but just something to think about and because its something I'm trying to be aware of. The little breaks in concentration, like where he drops food. I want to try and have a clear beginning and end keeping the intensity up till I clearly release and leave the position. Does that make sense?
 
#3 ·
I totally know what you mean and definitely agree! It's one thing that I do really consistently in every facet of our training except for heelwork. I'm not sure why! But I was recently thinking about how I needed to be making that clear. Perfect suggestion, thanks!
 
#5 ·
Hey DJ, something else thats not really a criticism, just something I keep in mind. I know you just turned on the camera, spur of the moment, but I don't like doing any heeling inside like that. Nothing beyond attention work. As soon as you're going to move, I want it outside, in drive. I'd rather have forging then lagging.
 
#7 ·
I agree with getting outside, longer strides will show the dog better. Adding distractions besides the bones/toys on the floor may be a challenge for a younger dog.
I couldn't hear many of the verbal communication over the music, so don't know if he was offering or doing what he was commanded.
I like to mix up the positions, keep the dog guessing on what comes next.
His heel position/focus is nice! Agree with not letting him sniff for dropped treat.
 
#13 ·
I agree with getting outside, longer strides will show the dog better. Adding distractions besides the bones/toys on the floor may be a challenge for a younger dog.
I couldn't hear many of the verbal communication over the music, so don't know if he was offering or doing what he was commanded.
I like to mix up the positions, keep the dog guessing on what comes next.
His heel position/focus is nice! Agree with not letting him sniff for dropped treat.
It all depends what the goal is. The level of engagement in video is good for a few seconds of work in high distraction environment before you lose the dog.

Engagement is everything, it has to be fun for the dog and the dog has to want to be with you and push you and push you for more. Only then heeling will last 10-15 minutes out there.
Overall I like the heelwork, but agree with Packen need more drive for the food. A few small things to notice you let him start off right away with a hover but instead of complete sitting. Next at 0:29 his front shoulder is not beside your knee and gets rewarded. Then at 2:22 you do I believe a recall but he does not come in and finish in front of you before finishing by your side. This is all based on IPO heeling. For food if he drops a piece I don't let him get it instead he has to work for the next piece, in essence loses the reward because he goofed. Just food for thought.
Thank you guys for the added help! I didn't think that working on it indoors would hinder anything, so that was helpful insight for sure.

My only real goal is a BH. My problem is that when he is really in drive, outside, with toys and engaged, he forges and swings out. So I have gone back to foundations inside with food while he is in lower drive to get the precision that I want, then I will put it back on a ball.

Definite thanks on the treat dropping comments. I can't seem to get him to take them and move with me, would it be acceptable to stop to reward each time, if I'm marking during motion? :confused:

Trying to get better about the butt hover and positioning, I'm sure that's something that will get better with time and experience, but it's at least a little better than it has been. :crazy:

At 2:22 I released him to fuss. He does not have a front, yet, so I can't recall him to front. :p Also why I can't do much with positioning. Still working on those!

Thanks again- great things to keep in mind!
 
#11 ·
It all depends what the goal is. The level of engagement in video is good for a few seconds of work in high distraction environment before you lose the dog.

Engagement is everything, it has to be fun for the dog and the dog has to want to be with you and push you and push you for more. Only then heeling will last 10-15 minutes out there.
 
#12 ·
Overall I like the heelwork, but agree with Packen need more drive for the food. A few small things to notice you let him start off right away with a hover but instead of complete sitting. Next at 0:29 his front shoulder is not beside your knee and gets rewarded. Then at 2:22 you do I believe a recall but he does not come in and finish in front of you before finishing by your side. This is all based on IPO heeling. For food if he drops a piece I don't let him get it instead he has to work for the next piece, in essence loses the reward because he goofed. Just food for thought.
 
#14 ·
If you want to go for a BH you will need to insert a front in there or you will get docked. As for treats I like to take a hot dog and if slimy with hot dog juice I dry off and then cut in half and cut pieces length wise. I then put between my thumb and forefinger so when I drop it down for reward it forms a pocket that he can sneak into and nibble a small amount off of. It seems with your treat being as small as it is that he can't do that, but also it is big enough it makes him stop to chew if that makes sense. When my dog nibbles on the hot dog he only gets about as much as a mouse would for each reward. The problem with hovering is once you reward by moving forward then it can quickly become a bad habit. These are all food for thought and not the only solution to try. :)
 
#15 ·
If you want to go for a BH you will need to insert a front in there or you will get docked. As for treats I like to take a hot dog and if slimy with hot dog juice I dry off and then cut in half and cut pieces length wise. I then put between my thumb and forefinger so when I drop it down for reward it forms a pocket that he can sneak into and nibble a small amount off of. It seems with your treat being as small as it is that he can't do that, but also it is big enough it makes him stop to chew if that makes sense. When my dog nibbles on the hot dog he only gets about as much as a mouse would for each reward. The problem with hovering is once you reward by moving forward then it can quickly become a bad habit. These are all food for thought and not the only solution to try. :)
Oh I definitely know we'll need a front! lol. It's just not something we've put enough time into to use practically yet.

I took this video outside last night, with a ball/tug reward for comparison.

Nevermind the awful outs. We haven't worked with this ball before and I know how to get good outs on my own, but that's not what we were training last night. I'm seeing some swinging and forging, a few butt hovers too. Any insight on this would also be great!

 
#16 ·
Very nice pup, how old is he? I see several things that are keeping him confused otherwise great job.

1. Move with normal pace, I see some slow lingering turns while looking at the dog. Even if you are walking in a circle, keep normal pace.

2. After you out the ball he is in limbo mode, i.e., he is left standing and thinking what is next so he tries to beat you into getting in position as you put ball under arm.

3. Focus on 1 item in a session (here you went straight, downed the dog, recalled, turned both directions, multiple paces, tried to correct his position after he went out of position) all in 1 session! (he cannot learn so many things at once)

So for 1, go straight a few paces then stop before he gets out of position, reward. Go straight a few paces and abruptly turn left (in 1 step) and stop. He will be out of position, no reward, try again, big reward when in position. Pace is normal, no lingering slow pace, your face up looking straight keep him in peripheral vision. If walking in left circle, same rules apply (normal pace, face up, reward or stop before he gets out of position).

For 2, Either sit or down him before or after outing the ball. This way he is in a certain commanded position. As you set up the ball under arm he should remain in the commanded position, then call him to heel or stand in basic position and tell him Sit.

3 is pretty self explanatory. Predetermine 1-2 exercises to use in the session and focus on those items only in that session.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Thank you Lies! We are sure trying.

Very nice pup, how old is he? I see several things that are keeping him confused otherwise great job.

1. Move with normal pace, I see some slow lingering turns while looking at the dog. Even if you are walking in a circle, keep normal pace.

2. After you out the ball he is in limbo mode, i.e., he is left standing and thinking what is next so he tries to beat you into getting in position as you put ball under arm.

3. Focus on 1 item in a session (here you went straight, downed the dog, recalled, turned both directions, multiple paces, tried to correct his position after he went out of position) all in 1 session! (he cannot learn so many things at once)

So for 1, go straight a few paces then stop before he gets out of position, reward. Go straight a few paces and abruptly turn left (in 1 step) and stop. He will be out of position, no reward, try again, big reward when in position. Pace is normal, no lingering slow pace, your face up looking straight keep him in peripheral vision. If walking in left circle, same rules apply (normal pace, face up, reward or stop before he gets out of position).

For 2, Either sit or down him before or after outing the ball. This way he is in a certain commanded position. As you set up the ball under arm he should remain in the commanded position, then call him to heel or stand in basic position and tell him Sit.

3 is pretty self explanatory. Predetermine 1-2 exercises to use in the session and focus on those items only in that session.
Thank you! He just turned 10 mos less than a week ago. We have done 100% of our training on our own.

1. Good to know! I was moving slower to let him be more deliberate. Should I just move with a normal pace and only mark/reward when he is where he needs to be, reset if he gets too far out of position?

As for the rest, I *know* we work on too much... I've been told this time and time again. It's something I struggle with, BUT, I purposefully didn't do #2 because I was being conscious of this! THAT is a work in progress because he does want to move with me and not hold the position. I worked on that a little bit before we started heeling.
 
#17 ·
Nice work!!! :) His brother doesn't even know that heeling is on the left side, let alone any resemblance!! I accidentally told him to heel last night while walking to the park (he was whining and pulling like a horse since he knew I had discs) and he looked back at me like I was nuts.

I agree with a few of the other comments: move a little faster, that will bring up his excitement (at least, it works with Nikon), pick one thing per session to focus on (but I admit I did like being able to see where he's at with his pivots, sits, down, recall, etc), but overall, you're doing super awesome for his age and not even training with a club. This style of heeling will be perfectly fine for a BH or if you go further with SchH.
 
#19 ·
Someone once told me that I should walk with my head forward and my back straight and tell myself my dog is there and heeling correctly. Any time you (not you personally, but a general "you") second guess yourself, you have a tendency to start giving weird cues or dropping the left should which will push the dog out of position. When I was teaching Pan heeling, I had several people watch us heel around a large space and verbally coach me until they felt his stride looked best. When that was happening, I had to take longer steps than what I would have if I were just heeling and thinking it looked OK.
 
#21 · (Edited)
I like the video of the outside work just a few small things to think about. First a few times he bounces expecting the reward but I don't hear any way of telling him that was not right, instead you keep going and he is rewarded so this can create problems later. He definitely likes to talk when he is frustrated. I notice when you are playing if you bring the ball closer to your body so you can make dead he does out clean, the only other time is when you lean over him, so then he does out but not as smooth. Over all I think you are well on your way to getting a BH a few things cleaned up and he could do really well. I would start working on adding the front so that he does not forget that in trial and goes straight to your side, have seen that happen. Be careful with the slow pace dogs need that sometimes when learning but after that a more normal pace looks a lot nicer. I think the forging is coming out of frustration that you may not be communicating with him what you expect or at least my partial deafness can not hear, just a thought. With a spotter it is easier but I try to start right and have him from the first step and reward when he is correct.
 
#31 ·
Thank you! I appreciate it!

No doubt you two have it going on.

I also know you know what time of day it is

by that little yellow sign in the background.

The sky is the limit for you two. The only

thing I can recommend is to train at different

locations/situations everyday, this is very important

for consistent reliability in the real world.
Thanks! What do you mean about a yellow sign? What sign?

We do train in new places and often as possible. Yesterday we were at a disc dog event for around 10 hours, and along with meeting a few of my friends and playing disc, Patton got to do a little heelwork, some retrieving of the tug past strangers, and work on long downs in the presence of hundreds of people and dogs in close proximity. He heeled with great focus within inches of LaRen's dalmation for a few moments and was rewarded heavily. :)

Willy got the response right. We want to mark during a good before it gets bad to prevent the chain of good-bad-good. This leads a lot less to clean up later and and prevents the bad from occurring. The only reason I bring up voice is that it was hard for me to hear tour goods or bad. I am quite sure he heard them but if we put a little enthusiasm in the positive marks then it helps to build drive to work for us. Keep up the good work with him.
That makes a lot of sense. It's something I'm trying to do better. When he jumped up at me like you mentioned, it was actually because I marked and he thought I was dropping the tug. I try to keep it a little more calm when we're moving so that it doesn't excite him too much and cause him to lose his brain. Maybe losing his brain and learning to work through it would be a better alternative.
 
#29 ·
No doubt you two have it going on.

I also know you know what time of day it is

by that little yellow sign in the background.

The sky is the limit for you two. The only

thing I can recommend is to train at different

locations/situations everyday, this is very important

for consistent reliability in the real world.
 
#30 ·
Willy got the response right. We want to mark during a good before it gets bad to prevent the chain of good-bad-good. This leads a lot less to clean up later and and prevents the bad from occurring. The only reason I bring up voice is that it was hard for me to hear tour goods or bad. I am quite sure he heard them but if we put a little enthusiasm in the positive marks then it helps to build drive to work for us. Keep up the good work with him.
 
#32 ·
I believe you said he is 10 months right now, if so he will mature and be a lot of fun. Once i feel like a dog knows the commands I build from there and like to try and keep it fun but the rules are stay correct and you get lots of fun, if incorrect we will work to clean that up.
 
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