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dpc134 01-22-2014 10:39 AM

Positive Reinforcement training questions
 
All,
I have been doing some research on Positive Reinforcement training methods and I am curious on a few scenarios how this method works for certain things. I trained my dog certain commands (sit, down, stay, etc.) using +R only. But how does +R work to teach unwanted behaviors?

How would you train your dog to stop chewing on something using Positive Reinforcement only?
How would you use +R to stop your dog from play biting too hard with another dog?
What about high distraction situations, when the distraction (another dog, person, etc.) is more motivating to your dog than your treat? How do you handle those situations?

I am only asking because I am trying to learn and expand my training knowledge. I have successfully trained my dog in all of these situations, however, I have not used +R only. I am curious how +R would be used to train these situations.

Thanks in advance.

Sp00ks 01-22-2014 11:11 AM

Subscribing to this one as I'm curious about the scenarios you have outlined as well. I was about to contract my trainer with nearly these exact questions. (It's been 10 years since we last trained a pup)

I have seen people talk about +R and use prong collars or E collars. I'd like an explanation on that as well. It just doesn't seem like +R. I'm not saying I don't agree with some of the training tools but I don't see how they can be claimed as +R.

In our case, a High distraction could be a stick or blowing leaf at this point :)

dpc134 01-22-2014 11:48 AM

I hear ya. I would love to train +R only. Prong and E-collars are definetly not +R. I currently use Prong and E-collar and I do not enjoy using corrections with my dog, but it has worked very well.
I trying to understand how to use +R only to train this behaviors / situations instead of a Prong and E-collar. People always mention +R only and I am curious how they would handle this scenarios.

crackem 01-22-2014 01:03 PM

I think for most +R "only" exists only in the mind :)

To take one scenario, dogs or other things being more highly prized than you and what to do about it.

First, you really need to know your dog and what it is ready for, next is managing that. You have to keep them from self rewarding on something that is higher value than you at that moment. I always use a drag line I can step on.

Not completely +R because if they try and leave, they do hit the end of the leash. It's more teaching them that they can't just check out and go do what they want and when they get frustrated, they come back and find great stuff still comes from me. That happens very infrequently because I don't put my dogs in that position.

You always have to be mindful of what is going on around you and how competing the distractions are. If you build it right, you don't have a dog that just checks out and goes for whatever it wants, but in the real world with real people and real dogs, you don't always get it "right" and there will be times you're in a situation that will call for something else.

Usually just by limiting what a dog can do during "learning" and building up to more and more competing distractions in a controlled environment, you can eliminate so much of what others struggle with all the time in training.

Chewing on things? that's a management thing. puppies chew, give them appropriate things, remove other things and limit their options.

I don't know how you'd control play biting, that's not something I think is worth even trying to think thru how I'd simulate that and transfer it to dog/dog interactions. I can certainly stop play at any point by giving them another command i've taught thru +R interactions and then let them resume when they've calmed a bit. But I don't think that's what you're asking.

+R only usually means +R "mostly" in the real world :)

Liesje 01-22-2014 01:10 PM

Remember what +R really means. You can't really talk about one quadrant of operant conditioning without understanding all four. "Reinforcement" means the behavior happens more frequently; "punishment" means the behavior happens less frequency, to the point of "extinction". So based on the actual theory behind the terms, you *can't* use +R to stop a dog from chewing shoes, etc. What you CAN do is simply manage the environment and/or reinforce incompatible behaviors. I can "reinforce" my puppy chewing a Nylabone and playing tug on a tug toy without having to "punish" him for chewing shoes.

MadLab 01-22-2014 01:15 PM

Quote:

How would you train your dog to stop chewing on something using Positive Reinforcement only?
DW posted this vid in another thread.

Pretty interesting technique and perspective on training an off command with positive only methods.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndTiVOCNY4M

A similar theory is to offer a new toy or ball or tug in return for dropping another.

Quote:

What about high distraction situations, when the distraction (another dog, person, etc.) is more motivating to your dog than your treat?...I am curious how +R would be used to train these situations.
The environment needs to be controlled and the dogs obedience or compliance needs to be built up introducing distractions over time.

Also if you really build drive for a toy, the dogs desire to get it out weighs it's interest in distractions.

But still that is the theory, if your dog is staring at a cat and ready to chase a little negative reinforcement is needed.

Sp00ks 01-22-2014 01:16 PM

Quote:

I can certainly stop play at any point by giving them another command i've taught thru +R interactions and then let them resume when they've calmed a bit. But I don't think that's what you're asking.
Personally, I have started doing just that. Too soon to tell how well it's working. I know he is amped up and doesn't want to do anything but continue playing. However, I make him sit until I can let him go and he remains sitting while the distraction is still present. When I can tell his heart rate and breathing have dropped, I'll let him resume play. "Free"

Baillif 01-22-2014 01:19 PM

+R only is pretty impossible anyway. Anytime the dog doesn't perform a behavior or performs the wrong one and you withhold reward you're technically doing -P at that point.

I'll take a shot at it though.

In the case of getting the dog to stop mouthing something you teach the off command with the treat in the hand you want the dog to stop mouthing. There is a tab dog training video on YouTube if you need to see an example. When they stop messing with it you mark reward. You can generalize that with other objects. I know because I have.

In the case of the last two you don't use treats as the reward. You use what the dog wants in those scenarios as the reward. You wait until they do whatever you want from them before allowing them to do what they want to do. This of course assumes you can actually do that. They might want to hump some poor little old lady's leg. If you go this route you might need to set up scenarios to teach it. As before there are elements of negative punishment in there but I don't really think those are avoidable.

Liesje is technically correct though. You aren't stopping a behavior in those cases you are just creating an alternative incompatible behavior the dog could choose over the behavior you don't want.

wolfy dog 01-22-2014 01:24 PM

+R doesn't mean you should never punish your dog. Punishment in these newer techniques consist of withholding the payoff the dog is seeking. For instance: if your dog tries to bolt out the door as soon as you open it and you close the door in front him, he is punished and learns that when he acts this way, he is not going anywhere. Punishment doesn't have to equal choking, applying electric shocks, hitting, yelling or anything else people come up with. And yes, controlling the environment makes your job a whole lot easier. If a pup never has had the opportunity to chew on shoes he will not consider them toys when he is grown up.

Liesje 01-22-2014 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfy dog (Post 4883354)
+R doesn't mean you should never punish your dog. Punishment in these newer techniques consist of withholding the payoff the dog is seeking. For instance: if your dog tries to bolt out the door as soon as you open it and you close the door in front him, he is punished and learns that when he acts this way, he is not going anywhere. Punishment doesn't have to equal choking, applying electric shocks, hitting, yelling or anything else people come up with. And yes, controlling the environment makes your job a whole lot easier. If a pup never has had the opportunity to chew on shoes he will not consider them toys when he is grown up.

I agree but people should be clear that this is not "positive reinforcement". -P is -P, not +R. I agree with previous posters that training a dog completely +R is basically impossible. There is also classical conditioning at play as well.


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