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Positive Reinforcement training questions

11K views 128 replies 22 participants last post by  dpc134 
#1 ·
All,
I have been doing some research on Positive Reinforcement training methods and I am curious on a few scenarios how this method works for certain things. I trained my dog certain commands (sit, down, stay, etc.) using +R only. But how does +R work to teach unwanted behaviors?

How would you train your dog to stop chewing on something using Positive Reinforcement only?
How would you use +R to stop your dog from play biting too hard with another dog?
What about high distraction situations, when the distraction (another dog, person, etc.) is more motivating to your dog than your treat? How do you handle those situations?

I am only asking because I am trying to learn and expand my training knowledge. I have successfully trained my dog in all of these situations, however, I have not used +R only. I am curious how +R would be used to train these situations.

Thanks in advance.
 
#2 ·
Subscribing to this one as I'm curious about the scenarios you have outlined as well. I was about to contract my trainer with nearly these exact questions. (It's been 10 years since we last trained a pup)

I have seen people talk about +R and use prong collars or E collars. I'd like an explanation on that as well. It just doesn't seem like +R. I'm not saying I don't agree with some of the training tools but I don't see how they can be claimed as +R.

In our case, a High distraction could be a stick or blowing leaf at this point :)
 
#32 · (Edited)
I have seen people talk about +R and use prong collars or E collars. I'd like an explanation on that as well. It just doesn't seem like +R. I'm not saying I don't agree with some of the training tools but I don't see how they can be claimed as +R. :)
Are they referring to prong collars and e-collars as "reinforcement?" Because that could be accurate. You can use those tools to reinforce behaviors by taking away negative stimulus. In operant conditioning terms that would be called negative reinforcement. You could also use the e-collar the same way as a clicker on vibrate, which is what some people do with deaf dogs.

Side note: I had a discussion with a positive trainer once about the appropriate use of aversives to prevent dangerous or psychologically damaging situations from occurring (i.e. better to suppress bad behavior than have it cause a dog fight). They ended up agreeing with me that it was appropriate but disagreed that it constituted training. For them, it constituted management and they didn't believe the dog would learn anything from the situation. So yeah, even a positive trainer might resort to aversives in a pinch, they will just deny that they are training and say that it was an emergency management technique. You can see this in Sophia Yin's videos where she is jerking a dog around on a head halter. So that's how some people get around it, philosophically.

There are some extreme people out there that even believe that a "no reward" marker is damaging to a dog. I don't really get it. I understand that if you use NRMs incorrectly, you will kill the desire to learn quickly, but I don't see how their use itself is a bad thing. That is one side of positive only training. But I think that's very extreme and most people would agree even if they use +R that bad behavior still has to have consequences, it just doesn't merit physical punishment.

I have had the same issues vis a vis distraction proofing that you are describing. I think +R is most effective when you can control the environment, because then you can always set the dog up for success and control the level of distraction. If you can't control the environment, it will still work but it will take a lot longer. For your example of being distracted by other dogs or people, you have to find the "thinking and learning zone," the distance at which your dog is still deciding whether or not to pay attention to you, and reward them consistently when they do pay attention (sometimes with prompting). Then you can gradually decrease the distance. Yes, it is possible to teach reliable behaviors this way. For example, in an environment I *can* control (the kitchen) I can work with my dog with tasty food all over the floor and she won't touch it, because we started with her leaving food alone in my hand, then leaving food alone in my open hand, then leaving food alone on the floor. She learned that making the choice to leave it alone would more consistently result in a reward in the long run than trying to get the food. In fact, leaving the food alone results in a reward 100% of the time, lunging for the food results in a reward 0% of the time. You can apply this principle to anything, but only if you can control the environment.

BTW this did not take long to teach because it was easy to set the dog up for success. Much harder to do this when you can't control the movement of other people or dogs. So in your case, paying attention to you instead of the other people/dogs needs to result in a reward 100% of the time, and losing focus needs to result in some kind of negative punishment. It should never result in the dog gaining attention from the people or other dogs (good luck with that! This is why +R in a skinner box works much better than +R in real life). Usually withdrawing from the distraction is negative punishment, but I haven't had much luck with that because I don't have the same problem. For my dog, retreating is actually a functional reward because she is uncomfortable.

Anyway that was just a really long-winded way of explaining how you can handle distraction-proofing. It's just showing the dog that certain behaviors are more rewarding than others. Will it work off-lead with squirrels and cats? I doubt it. I used a prong collar for cat-proofing and I'm really glad I did.
 
#3 ·
I hear ya. I would love to train +R only. Prong and E-collars are definetly not +R. I currently use Prong and E-collar and I do not enjoy using corrections with my dog, but it has worked very well.
I trying to understand how to use +R only to train this behaviors / situations instead of a Prong and E-collar. People always mention +R only and I am curious how they would handle this scenarios.
 
#4 ·
I think for most +R "only" exists only in the mind :)

To take one scenario, dogs or other things being more highly prized than you and what to do about it.

First, you really need to know your dog and what it is ready for, next is managing that. You have to keep them from self rewarding on something that is higher value than you at that moment. I always use a drag line I can step on.

Not completely +R because if they try and leave, they do hit the end of the leash. It's more teaching them that they can't just check out and go do what they want and when they get frustrated, they come back and find great stuff still comes from me. That happens very infrequently because I don't put my dogs in that position.

You always have to be mindful of what is going on around you and how competing the distractions are. If you build it right, you don't have a dog that just checks out and goes for whatever it wants, but in the real world with real people and real dogs, you don't always get it "right" and there will be times you're in a situation that will call for something else.

Usually just by limiting what a dog can do during "learning" and building up to more and more competing distractions in a controlled environment, you can eliminate so much of what others struggle with all the time in training.

Chewing on things? that's a management thing. puppies chew, give them appropriate things, remove other things and limit their options.

I don't know how you'd control play biting, that's not something I think is worth even trying to think thru how I'd simulate that and transfer it to dog/dog interactions. I can certainly stop play at any point by giving them another command i've taught thru +R interactions and then let them resume when they've calmed a bit. But I don't think that's what you're asking.

+R only usually means +R "mostly" in the real world :)
 
#5 ·
Remember what +R really means. You can't really talk about one quadrant of operant conditioning without understanding all four. "Reinforcement" means the behavior happens more frequently; "punishment" means the behavior happens less frequency, to the point of "extinction". So based on the actual theory behind the terms, you *can't* use +R to stop a dog from chewing shoes, etc. What you CAN do is simply manage the environment and/or reinforce incompatible behaviors. I can "reinforce" my puppy chewing a Nylabone and playing tug on a tug toy without having to "punish" him for chewing shoes.
 
#6 ·
How would you train your dog to stop chewing on something using Positive Reinforcement only?
DW posted this vid in another thread.

Pretty interesting technique and perspective on training an off command with positive only methods.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndTiVOCNY4M

A similar theory is to offer a new toy or ball or tug in return for dropping another.

What about high distraction situations, when the distraction (another dog, person, etc.) is more motivating to your dog than your treat?...I am curious how +R would be used to train these situations.
The environment needs to be controlled and the dogs obedience or compliance needs to be built up introducing distractions over time.

Also if you really build drive for a toy, the dogs desire to get it out weighs it's interest in distractions.

But still that is the theory, if your dog is staring at a cat and ready to chase a little negative reinforcement is needed.
 
#7 ·
I can certainly stop play at any point by giving them another command i've taught thru +R interactions and then let them resume when they've calmed a bit. But I don't think that's what you're asking.
Personally, I have started doing just that. Too soon to tell how well it's working. I know he is amped up and doesn't want to do anything but continue playing. However, I make him sit until I can let him go and he remains sitting while the distraction is still present. When I can tell his heart rate and breathing have dropped, I'll let him resume play. "Free"
 
#8 · (Edited)
+R only is pretty impossible anyway. Anytime the dog doesn't perform a behavior or performs the wrong one and you withhold reward you're technically doing -P at that point.

I'll take a shot at it though.

In the case of getting the dog to stop mouthing something you teach the off command with the treat in the hand you want the dog to stop mouthing. There is a tab dog training video on YouTube if you need to see an example. When they stop messing with it you mark reward. You can generalize that with other objects. I know because I have.

In the case of the last two you don't use treats as the reward. You use what the dog wants in those scenarios as the reward. You wait until they do whatever you want from them before allowing them to do what they want to do. This of course assumes you can actually do that. They might want to hump some poor little old lady's leg. If you go this route you might need to set up scenarios to teach it. As before there are elements of negative punishment in there but I don't really think those are avoidable.

Liesje is technically correct though. You aren't stopping a behavior in those cases you are just creating an alternative incompatible behavior the dog could choose over the behavior you don't want.
 
#14 ·
+R only is pretty impossible anyway. Anytime the dog doesn't perform a behavior or performs the wrong one and you withhold reward you're technically doing -P at that point.

I'll take a shot at it though.

In the case of getting the dog to stop mouthing something you teach the off command with the treat in the hand you want the dog to stop mouthing. There is a tab dog training video on YouTube if you need to see an example. When they stop messing with it you mark reward. You can generalize that with other objects. I know because I have.

In the case of the last two you don't use treats as the reward. You use what the dog wants in those scenarios as the reward. You wait until they do whatever you want from them before allowing them to do what they want to do. This of course assumes you can actually do that. They might want to hump some poor little old lady's leg. If you go this route you might need to set up scenarios to teach it. As before there are elements of negative punishment in there but I don't really think those are avoidable.

Liesje is technically correct though. You aren't stopping a behavior in those cases you are just creating an alternative incompatible behavior the dog could choose over the behavior you don't want.
What if the dog chews on it only when you are not present? How do you teach the "off" command if you don't catch them in the act?

So for the scenario with my dog play biting with another dog, I keep removing my dog from playing everytime she bites? How does she know why she is being removed? How will she learn not to bite?

I am only asking for clarity, not trying to argue. Thanks for the reply.
 
#9 ·
+R doesn't mean you should never punish your dog. Punishment in these newer techniques consist of withholding the payoff the dog is seeking. For instance: if your dog tries to bolt out the door as soon as you open it and you close the door in front him, he is punished and learns that when he acts this way, he is not going anywhere. Punishment doesn't have to equal choking, applying electric shocks, hitting, yelling or anything else people come up with. And yes, controlling the environment makes your job a whole lot easier. If a pup never has had the opportunity to chew on shoes he will not consider them toys when he is grown up.
 
#10 ·
I agree but people should be clear that this is not "positive reinforcement". -P is -P, not +R. I agree with previous posters that training a dog completely +R is basically impossible. There is also classical conditioning at play as well.
 
#11 ·
"I agree but people should be clear that this is not "positive reinforcement". -P is -P, not +R. I agree with previous posters that training a dog completely +R is basically impossible. There is also classical conditioning at play as well. "
I think that's why you're starting to hear people talk about "force free" training instead of the positive reinforcement and the all-positive wording that was popular in recent years.
 
#16 ·
I think that's why you're starting to hear people talk about "force free" training instead of the positive reinforcement and the all-positive wording that was popular in recent years.
I agree, I'm not a "force free" trainer but I think it's a more appropriate catch phrase.
 
#12 ·
Thanks to all for your replies. These are very helpful.

A few comments:
I do not want to alter my environment to prevent my dog from chewing on something that she is not supposed to. I want to teach her not to chew on it. I have already done this, but not using +R techniques.

I am not sure what toy or treat people are using for their dog, but my dog loves people and other dogs. She gets super excited when they are present. There is no food or toy to break her distraction for obeying a command, except for physical correction.
 
#15 ·
A few comments:
I do not want to alter my environment to prevent my dog from chewing on something that she is not supposed to. I want to teach her not to chew on it. I have already done this, but not using +R techniques.
You can't do this using +R because it is a *reinforcer* meaning the behavior happens more often.

Many people train by management early on. Prevention can be a form of training (more like a tool used alongside training). All my dogs are OK being free in the house and won't destroy shoes but they were certainly not born that way.
 
#18 ·
Whenever you punish a dog for chewing on something you're essentially teaching them to not chew on it in your presence. Some dogs won't touch it again especially if you get them on the first time they mess with it but some just wait till you leave the room. To positive train or punish away the behavior you have to get tricky. You set up stings and redirect behaviors or punish the behavior you don't want. If you wanted to positive train it you'd need a hide or baby monitor or one of those devices that mark rewards with a sound by remote control. Whenever I have issues with that problem in particular I generally use bitter apple or management.

For the play biting thing you mark the behavior you don't want with a no, and then pull the puppy away for a 6 second time out or so then let the pup go to play again. The dog figures it out.
 
#22 ·
For the play biting thing you mark the behavior you don't want with a no, and then pull the puppy away for a 6 second time out or so then let the pup go to play again. The dog figures it out.
Why not just use an E-collar? In 30 seconds, the problem is corrected. Again, I am asking to learn, not trying to start an argument.
My brother has a dog who does not listen when playing with another dog. He does not believe in prong or e-collar or any physical correction other than leash. His dog will ignore his commands when playing, he goes over and takes the dog by the collar and puts him in time out, then lets him play again after the dog calms down. The next command given, still dog doesnt obey and so he repeats. This has been going on for 3 years. The dog has patience and just waits it out. Why not use physical correction to make the dog uncomfortable and teach the dog that it is unacceptable to not obey my commands?
 
#19 ·
As far as dog interactions go, personally I've only ever used management. I've never successfully "trained" a dog to behave a certain way around another dog. I do train them to perform incompatible behaviors (like, sit in heel position and look at me rather than run off and greet every dog within 100 yards). I let the dogs correct each other or invite/reward play by reciprocating. If one dog is really pesky/pushy and does not get the point from the other dog, then they just aren't put together. What is "play biting too hard" to one dog might be perfectly acceptable to another and a lot of this is based on genetics like breed and temperament. Of all the battles to pick with my dogs (so to speak) using +R to do that sort of behavior modification isn't high on my priority list and I don't know how well it would work as a permanent solution.
 
#20 ·
Just my humble opinion here....training a dog using +P requires patience on the handler's part in the beginning. Really pay attention to the puppy/dog and learn their unique body language. Find out what your dog/puppy considers high value (not what you think should be high value). Set up scenarios where the puppy/dog can succeed. Take baby steps and reward hugely.

Again, in my experiance, I find a dog trained using +R, is really, really focused on the handler and complies because it wants to and is happy to, not because the dog doesn't want the correction. For me...that is the fun part of training. Not just a well trained dog, but a dog who is full of confidence, love of life and thinks I rock.
 
#25 ·
Just my humble opinion here....training a dog using +P requires patience on the handler's part in the beginning. Really pay attention to the puppy/dog and learn their unique body language. Find out what your dog/puppy considers high value (not what you think should be high value). Set up scenarios where the puppy/dog can succeed. Take baby steps and reward hugely.

Again, in my experiance, I find a dog trained using +R, is really, really focused on the handler and complies because it wants to and is happy to, not because the dog doesn't want the correction. For me...that is the fun part of training. Not just a well trained dog, but a dog who is full of confidence, love of life and thinks I rock.
I 100% agree with you. But this doesn't answer how to train using +R with the scenarios mentioned.
 
#24 ·
I don't have issue with physical corrections for that kind of thing, I was just giving you an example of how it can be done not necessarily how I would do it. This thread was about +r and your questions seemed focused on that.

As long as you are marking your punishments and rewards and being clear and consistent with the dog do what you gotta do, within reason ofc.
 
#27 ·
I don't have issue with physical corrections for that kind of thing, I was just giving you an example of how it can be done not necessarily how I would do it. This thread was about +r and your questions seemed focused on that.

As long as you are marking your punishments and rewards and being clear and consistent with the dog do what you gotta do, within reason ofc.
Makes sense, thanks.
 
#30 · (Edited)
There's a balance to be struck there. I've seen dogs trained on prong collars using +p and -r and -p only and once they figured out how to avoid the pressure they were confident, happy, and did the behaviors with enthusiasm. Figure that one out. The behavior itself can be made a reward. Tact is key. Dog training is an art. Training with pressure is just as much of an art as positive reinforcement based methods.

You can reward with a tug, you can punish with that same tug without ruining the way a dog thinks about that tug.

What a lot of people won't tell you. You know how you make a dog perform behaviors super quick and flashy? It isn't the +r that does it (normally). It's the -r layered over it.
 
#31 ·
There's a balance to be struck there. I've seen dogs trained on prong collars using +p and -r and -p only and once they figured out how to avoid the pressure they were confident, happy, and did the behaviors with enthusiasm. Figure that one out. The behavior itself can be made a reward. Tact is key. Dog training is an art. Training with pressure is just as much if an art as positive reinforcement based methods.

You can reward with a tug, you can punish with that same tug without ruining the way a dog thinks about that tug.

What a lot of people won't tell you. You know how you make a dog perform behaviors super quick and flashy? It isn't the +r that does it. It's the -r layered over it.
Yes, look at Bart Bellon videos. He does "NePoPo" meaning a negative paired with two positive (so I guess for any correction or -R avoidance, the dog gets double the reward/praise). IMO, operant conditioning works best when most or all of the quadrants are used (I struggle with -P). However this assumes that the dog is a very stable dog, not overly handler soft, and enjoys training. Some dogs have issues that inform what tools and methods are appropriate regardless of their effectiveness "on paper".
 
#34 ·
Super soft dogs just mean more tact needs to be used. It's really why to become really really good at training you need to train a crap ton of dogs under the supervision of someone who is a great trainer and instructor. All the reading and theory in the world can't give you the ability to "feel" what needs to be done with a dog. It can't give you the consistency and the timing. You learn to be empathetic with the dogs when you're training them as you're being trained. You're on the dog about his behaviors and someone else is in you about yours.
 
#35 · (Edited)
I think the idea behind nrm's being potentially bad depends a lot on how you use it and the dog. If you punish a dog when you're saying no frequently then no carries some past baggage with it and shouldn't be used as an nrm. The word no in that case was used as a conditioned punisher. It predicts punishment for the dog and if the dog is learning something new and all of a sudden hears no which predicts punishment the dog starts to get iffy about the situation quickly. You should use one that carries less weight like wrong or uh oh. Something more neutral.

The other factor to be worried about is motivation if a dog is wrong too often. Lots of dogs out there hate being wrong and get frustrated easily. In those cases they might quit working but that really isn't the nrm's fault. It is generally errors made on the part of the trainer. A frustrated dog can potentially fall apart and be wrong more often because of its emotional state.
 
#41 · (Edited)
I'm the best, funnest thing around.
That is the key to +R. If your dog always look into your mouth just waiting for your words to fly out, watches your every motion at all times out of the corner of his eye - your training could be easy and +R only. Which shoes does your puppy chew? Your slipper while you are sitting now and typing a new post in this forum, or your shoe down in the corridor? There is a huge difference between two: in the first case he is trying to involve you in something and it is easy to redirect him to some toy to chew, in the second case your puppy is deprived of this "togetherness" and tries to amuse himself being left alone.
Make your puppy ball mad and it will be the best tool in training with +R only. Have a ball in your pocket during your walks. If you see some dog your puppy is ready to run for - just flash the ball out of your pocket and start to walk in opposite direction. Repetition of such builds impression for him that, if he runs forward - the result would be you walking back with his ball, and he would face necessity to turn back after you instead of moving forward towards distracting object. You may say, here could be a problem to pass this dog with your puppy at your heel off leash. No problem, if he knows that his initiative to continue the motion forward unavoidably leads to divertion of the route for both of you. No verbal correction is required, no commands or recalls, everything is done in a complete silence with a use of the ball. Here you can pronounce only one command "Sit" if you want him to meet the dog, letting that dog to approach him in a sitting position. If he gets up - start walking away immediately.
Though, I'd put aside this biting. Use recall if you see him biting other dog too hard. It is not because he really wants that dog to cry, but up to his uncontrolable developing jaws. Don't wait when dog signals to him by crying, but signal yourself with your recall. Stop the play by recalling at the hottest moment.
 
#42 ·
Though, I'd put aside this biting. Use recall if you see him biting other dog too hard. It is not because he really wants that dog to cry, but up to his uncontrolable developing jaws. It is not that dog should signal to him by crying, but you signalling with your recall. Stop the play by recalling at the hottest moment.
Good advice. Thanks.
I don't have issues with my dog chewing. I was only using that as an example.
For the play biting with the other dog: What do you do when the dog does not obey the recall command? What if the dog values playing more than coming to you?
What if you have a dog with a play/prey drive so high that no matter how valuable and loving the dog sees you, they still just want to play rather than obey a recall. Why not use correction?
 
#43 ·
OK I have such a dog. He is going on 8 years old. You CANNOT recall him when he's playing with another dog, or at the dog park, or doing anything he thinks is fun really. My answer is....I just don't bring him to play with other dogs if I need to recall him, or if I think there may be a safety issue and he needs to be recalled, he drags a thin check cord so I can "reel" him in. Again we just use this form of management where there are set times that he is playing with other dogs, not attempting to do obedience beyond his level of proofing. I want him to have fun with other dogs because he has always enjoyed it. He is a low drive dog, doesn't care about toys, doesn't care about food when other dogs are around, no motivation for training just for the sake of it. If a dog comes over for a play date, I know that I can't recall him so I don't keep yelling his name. I either let him play in a fully enclosed, safe space or I have a line on him so I can still control him.

Regardless of what method or tool is being used, you MUST set the dog up for success. It's not fair to keep trying to recall a dog who is blowing off the recall if you already know he won't do it. I don't call my dog unless I think he will obey, or I have a way of reinforcing my command ("reeling" him in).

The flip side is, anytime he "checks in" with me on his own, I throw him a little praise party and then give him the release word to go back and play with the other dogs. That way he's not associating me or the recall with being taken away from the play. He gets praise AND he gets to keep playing. Win win for him.
 
#45 ·
OK I have such a dog. He is going on 8 years old. You CANNOT recall him when he's playing with another dog, or at the dog park, or doing anything he thinks is fun really. My answer is....I just don't bring him to play with other dogs if I need to recall him, or if I think there may be a safety issue and he needs to be recalled, he drags a thin check cord so I can "reel" him in. Again we just use this form of management where there are set times that he is playing with other dogs, not attempting to do obedience beyond his level of proofing. I want him to have fun with other dogs because he has always enjoyed it. He is a low drive dog, doesn't care about toys, doesn't care about food when other dogs are around, no motivation for training just for the sake of it. If a dog comes over for a play date, I know that I can't recall him so I don't keep yelling his name. I either let him play in a fully enclosed, safe space or I have a line on him so I can still control him.

Regardless of what method or tool is being used, you MUST set the dog up for success. It's not fair to keep trying to recall a dog who is blowing off the recall if you already know he won't do it. I don't call my dog unless I think he will obey, or I have a way of reinforcing my command ("reeling" him in).

The flip side is, anytime he "checks in" with me on his own, I throw him a little praise party and then give him the release word to go back and play with the other dogs. That way he's not associating me or the recall with being taken away from the play. He gets praise AND he gets to keep playing. Win win for him.
Have you tried E-collar or prong collar correction to train recall?
 
#44 ·
Don't recall dogs that are play fighting when stuff is about to get serious. You open the dog you recall up to retaliation or just an unexpected hit. They get punished for obeying you. Not good.

Recall is to me non negotiable. Once they know it through+r and -r and I know they know I punish for having it blown off.
 
#47 ·
Recall is to me non negotiable. Once they know it through+r and -r and I know they know I punish for having it blown off.
I agree. A solid recall could save a dog's life. This is one command that I expect to be followed regardless of what is happening around them. I do not want to manage or control their environment in order to set them up for success when I recall them. I expect my dog to obey everytime and anytime and anywhere that I recall.
 
#46 ·
Having tools is great but you don't need them in that case. You can punish independently of the collars and the dog should know this. They don't recall because they have a prong on or a leash on or a long line or an e collar. They recall because if they don't something bad will happen, and if they do something great will happen everytime.
 
#50 ·
A reliably trained dog using +R only is a pipe dream unless you have a really soft dog that lives only to please you. I personally dont like that type of dog, I might pay money to watch someone train my current pup with +R only..lol.
I find a lot of people tell stories on the internet about how they trained the dog completly with plusR then in reality you find the dog is not reliable under distraction or even trained well period. Watching a lady do this at my club its amusing and frustrating because the dog gets nowhere and achieves nothing in the end.
 
#61 ·
A reliably trained dog using +R only is a pipe dream unless you have a really soft dog that lives only to please you. I personally dont like that type of dog, I might pay money to watch someone train my current pup with +R only..lol.
I find a lot of people tell stories on the internet about how they trained the dog completly with plusR then in reality you find the dog is not reliable under distraction or even trained well period. Watching a lady do this at my club its amusing and frustrating because the dog gets nowhere and achieves nothing in the end.
I agree. I think that +R only can work with certain dogs only to a certain level of training and under certain "controlled" circumstances. I am happy to see that it isn't just me that thinks this way. I just read so many books on training that talks about +R only and I can't figure out how it works in the scenarios that I described.
 
#51 · (Edited)
What if you have a dog with a play/prey drive so high that no matter how valuable and loving the dog sees you, they still just want to play rather than obey a recall. Why not use correction?
It will depend on what you use your recall for. Try to put yourself in his hide, or, bring up a similar situation with yourself. Say, you are playing football with your friends, the game is amazing and you cannot hear recalls ... Of whom? Here I want to stress. If it was your coach, who simply wants to tell you something unimportant as he always does - it would be one story, but the story would be different if it was a coach who tells you something very important, then you definitely would come to him, you would be aware of his presence on the field during the game. So is with the dogs, the only person they suppose to value, love and respect simply dissapears out of their mind when they play. Don't let it happen. He must know that you can recall at any time, your recall should sound at the back of his head. And, you can train him of this awareness. Start recalling in some mild situations, walk together with him some distance from other dogs, crouch in front of him and murmur or whisper some words in a soft voice into his ear, then play ball at the spot, or war-and-tug, ask him to "Sit", "Down" couple of times, then come back to the dogs. When you start seeing that he runs to you eagerly, then train recall in hot situations, but not too often. He must get that you recall for something, not for nothing. Finally it would be enough to recall and simply ask him to sit for a minute just stroking him. Try to hide behind a tree in the distance to recall him from there, try to make your recall interesting for him, use your imagination.
Corrections in a vigorous dog play make dogs obedient out of fear of punishment (whether soft verbal or hard physical), not out of love to you. Punishment also makes dogs even more agressive, because your dog would never blame you who punishes him, but that dog he just 10 minutes ago was biting.
 
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