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Old 02-04-2013, 07:52 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Ok just to clarify - I was out there with the horses, the cattle had just come into my property (where they usually do not belong) my hubby opened the gate to go to the car and Hex came out with him, he was about to take him for a drive to the shops and had both hands full so didn't have the dog on lead. He ran over toward me, which got the cattle spooked and they started running.
That was just too much for his little one year old brain to handle and he took off after them .
I went straight after him so I could try to get him to come or to grab him if he ran past, he knew he was being called, he also knows chasing is WRONG but apparently I can't be more exciting to him than a herd of running cows - go figure.
His recall is generally not too bad ( no it's not perfect yet), he comes out to feed the horses with me quite a bit (on lead) and has been really good recently at coming when called and not annoying them.

He is NEVER unattended outside the fenced yard (he'd most likely get shot by one of the neighbours if he was)
I have always thought of e collars as cruel but I'd rather use on on him then have him get his head kicked in or have the neighbours shoot him.
Hence I was asking for advise on HOW to use one or for other ideas that may have worked for people.
I said I FELT like hitting him full blast NOT that I did - I'm still dreading putting that bloody collar on him at all.
He needs to learn that chasing is a bad thing and uncomfortable, not fun like he currently thinks.
Yes I want to TRAIN him not to chase - I was asking on advise how to best DO that.
it's not like he's running around the whole property every day merrily chasing everything that moves - this was a stupid situation which annoyingly sometimes happens.

I have read the Lou Castles crittering protocol and it sounds good - I like how he makes it the dogs decision not to chase. I will give that program a go - thank's to all who recommended it
MaggieRoseLee thank you for the recall training links as well, they were very informative.

Rocket Dog thank you for your kind post, I'm glad you understand where I was coming from!

Last edited by Mooch; 02-04-2013 at 07:54 AM.
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:24 AM   #12 (permalink)
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I had to use an e-collar with my malamute, he would chase livestock, deer, and coyotes. I didn't like the idea, but I followed the advice of the trainer I had at the time (early 90s) and it worked.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:05 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I have literally been exactly where you are--unexpected cattle on my property, unable to grab my dogs, etc. So no criticism from me.

My GSD especially was unbelievably bad about chasing stock when I got him. I think you need a multi-pronged approach. And FWIW, I did all this without anything but a flat collar, lead, and rewards, but I have known some dogs who do need an e-collar. Just be sure you know how to use it appropriately.

So, first step is to get his recall 100% (or as close as possible...I'd say at least 99%). I can call my GSD off a bolting herd of deer (or cattle) now, but I could barely call him off a trotting horse before I seriously went about proofing his recall. If your dog is ever off-lead in an unfenced area, then you need to get his recall as perfect as possible. And that may not be great with some dogs. I grew up with a Basset Hound that we tried for years to train a recall in, and she only ever got to about 70%. So she was only off-leash in controlled situations, and on a 30-foot lead in others where we'd let a more reliable dog totally free.

Second, if your dog has a strong prey drive, you need to be sure he has an outlet for that. If you're doing that, great. If not, let us know and you will be inundated with solutions. If you're not, even something as simple as fetch can do it. He also needs plenty of exercise--for a dog with strong drives and a lot of energy, you're going to be fighting an uphill battle to try to train him not to chase if he's not having his needs met.

On to chasing...as long as the dog is getting plenty of opportunity to chase appropriate things (like a ball), and plenty of exercise...I have had great results with positive reinforcement. Basically, all I do is reward the dog for ignoring the livestock, and get his attention back to me if he does look at them. Most dogs will learn that ignoring stock and paying attention to people is the best option for them. You'll have to do it gradually (ask your neighbors, many will be willing to help IME if you've framed it as you did above...you keep your dog under control but want to train for those rare occasions you might be caught by surprise), start with a quiet herd you're standing some distance away from, gradually increase proximity and movement of the herd as appropriate for the dog. But I think for many dogs, it is possible (if a bit more time-consuming) to do with positive reinforcement--again, as long as they're getting their prey drive and exercise requirements met.

I've done this with success with my GSD (who has a very high prey drive) and tons of ACDs (who are different, but I think even stronger herding/chasing instincts) over the years, since I had a farm until like 4 months ago when I decided to move to the city for a break.
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:46 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Fine. I'll be more specific:
Train a reliable recall.
Train a reliable aus.
Train a reliable platz.

If these commands are not reliable around the stimulous, they are not reliable. Couple having these reliable behaviors with no unaccompanied access = an end to harrassing livestock - which, in many states, can get your dog killed by the livestock owner.
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Old 02-07-2013, 01:07 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Look, I have trained two GSDs with the shock from an e-collar. If they associate the shock from the stock they chase, they will stop doing it. I also trained them that cars moving towards them "bite"... They look out for and get out of the way of cars..

If they associated it with you, they when you are not there it must be OK... Just like a garbage can that smells really good. It you train them, maybe they will leave it alone, but if you are not home it could seem to be OK... However, if they learn the garbage can has a big STING to it, they will stay away from it... This works for most dogs.

The stock has a "Kick" a "Sting" associated with getting too close, and they learn respect. It has worked with two GSDs, and i am thinking about renewing my set, to use on my new Black Working Dog puppy. It is about a little measure of what some think cruelty, to teach them it BITES and to save their lives. If they learn it BITES, they will stear clear of it.. Stock, cars, or garbage cans. Worked for me.

Hope this is a help...
lone Ranger, out on the Last Frontier, dancing with wolves... heh he
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Old 02-07-2013, 02:49 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by middleofnowhere View Post
Fine. I'll be more specific:
Train a reliable recall.
Train a reliable aus.
Train a reliable platz.

If these commands are not reliable around the stimulous, they are not reliable. Couple having these reliable behaviors with no unaccompanied access = an end to harrassing livestock - which, in many states, can get your dog killed by the livestock owner.
Your tone really stinks!!!

Personally I would try to proof your recall before the e-collar but some dogs just really want to chase things. I too can call my dog off anything......I use him around our sheep so he has to come off, wait and go easy when told but it is an on going learning curve for him so does take a lot of time. I don't have a problem with the idea of an e-collar especially if he has a solid recall all other times except with the stock.
Take him out around them a bit more on a long line and try teach him to be calm around them etc. How old is he??
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Old 02-07-2013, 03:58 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I like Lou's protocol but there is a lot of merit to what Loneranger suggests. Many many hunters who use dogs for duck or pig or rabbit (etc.) hunting use the "trash breaking" protocol. If you google this, you will find it basically involves showing the dog that chasing the wrong thing is very uncomfortable. It is not a pleasant way of dog training but it is effective and easy for most people to get right.
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Old 02-07-2013, 04:55 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Default Stock chasing - help needed

Thanks for all the suggestions, Lone Ranger summed it up well how it was explained to me by a trainer

Make the dog think the cattle, bin etc is what caused the zap.

Sparra he just turned 1 at the start of February


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Old 02-07-2013, 05:14 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooch View Post
Thanks for all the suggestions, Lone Ranger summed it up well how it was explained to me by a trainer

Make the dog think the cattle, bin etc is what caused the zap.

Sparra he just turned 1 at the start of February


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So he is very young and really not surprising he wants to chase.
Did you mention at one point you wanted to try some herding?? I may be thinking of someone else. If it was you then an ecollar would not be the go but not sure it was you.
If you have time get him out there everyday on nice big long line and do some training with him.....he still has lots to learn at only 1.
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Old 02-07-2013, 05:21 PM   #20 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=RocketDog;2878426]The OP was very frustrated today. They chose NOT to use a tool they had, instead coming here to ask for (and I quote directly) "Ideas", obviously to train and manage the situation. They asked for others with personal experience in this situation to offer suggestions also.


EXACTLY. I mean the OP has said that he was with his dog, and was asking for training advice. So rude to jump down his throat the way several people did. There really are some high and mighty's on here, aren't there? They deserve the full stim Waay more than the dog would. Yeah, I don't really mean that and the statement probably doesn't help.

I use my dogs e-collars to set boundaries because I have to travel for work and they go with me. When we check into a new hotel we set the limits in the nearest field/lot etc. I've never had to use the shock, or even turn it up halfway on vibrate. It just gets their attention and shifts their focus back on me when my voice isn't enough. Not sure I could compete with a cow for attention tho! I do win out over squirrels and cats, so that's cool.

I'm no training expert, so I can't really help, but it looks like you are getting some good advice.

Good luck with your wrangler!
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