Female litter mates, 13 mos starting to fight

[selzer]

Originally Posted by Dotty

The stress is around training and walking two puppies (separately). Add in they are both reactive. I hope once the puppy stress is gone, it will be not such a big issue.

I have a lot of dogs.

When classes are in session, I take one or two dogs -- two classes back to back on the same night. I work each dog (currently enrolled) once a week in class.

I don't walk them every day. If you can't take each dog separately every day, take each dog every other day. That is much better than trying to take two reactive dogs at the same time. Because they will feed off of each other.

Sometimes a good work out can be throwing the ball in the back yard.

[Dotty]

Here they are!
They love to wrestle.

I am sure Jazzy's life wasn't that bad with you.

[Liesje]

Wow they are beautiful!!!

I still don't get why your daughter can't take her dog back? You mentioned that she works....how long are her shifts? I think most people on this forum work. I work 8-5 every day but my dogs certainly are not neglected nor do they live an unfulfilled life. The reactivity stuff is common and can be worked through, but it would be easier on everyone if each dog had a handler they could look to for trust and proper guidance.

[selzer]

They are beautiful.

It is so great when they are playing and happy together. Unfortunately, it is awful for us when they are not.

It would be best if your daughter could take her dog and work with her. And, I agree that having her stay at home alone should be just fine, so long as your daughter is able to work with her when she is home.

Is there some light at the end of the tunnel? Is there a specific deadline or something that is making it really tough for her right now, but should be done by year end, or spring?

[Dotty]

As far as the daughter goes, she is super irresponsible. We felt Ellie wasn't getting the exercise she should have gotten, structure, or the training. Our daughter likes to party and have fun, so she is alone at night too. Now she is in a house with other people so she said she can't take Ellie there.

My daughter and Ellie are very bonded too, Ellie just melts right into her when she visits.

Now that I am reflecting on all of this right now, maybe she is better there then here. We still foot the bill on everything Ellie needs when she lived with her, she would always get the same as her sister.

Oh I don't know!

[martemchik]

This is one of those really difficult issues. I know you want to help both dogs, but sometimes this issue just isn't fixable. They aren't puppies anymore. You'll actually have more stress since now they can easily hurt/kill each other. At one year old they are fully capable of doing some really bad things to each other and to other dogs.

The fact is, even if you fix this problem for a year, two years, three years, bitches still have a tendency to snap at each other randomly. If you want any type of a "normal" dog life, you should really think about rehoming one of them. That way...with just one you can work on focus and ignoring other dogs. You'll never be able to walk the two of them together as they don't just react to other dogs but to each other and so it would be almost impossible to get them to look at you and ignore everything else if both of them are at your side. I'm sure its possible, but this would have to be done by someone that is very very experienced at handling dogs.

As you've seen by most of the forum posts...even the most experienced of people (breeders, SAR people, Schutzhund people) have all done the crate and rotate thing. It makes for a peaceful household, with much less stress and much less worry. They don't have to be on their toes at all times, thinking a fight will break out, and so the dogs are then calmer as well.

I wouldn't give one back to your daughter either...give the dog to someone that has time for it. I swear if you were closer to me I'd really consider it. We're starting our search for a female and although I have a male already, sometimes dogs just click. If it was easy to have some prolonged meetings/play dates I would have loved to take one of those beauties off your hands.

[selzer]

Originally Posted by martemchik

This is one of those really difficult issues. I know you want to help both dogs, but sometimes this issue just isn't fixable. They aren't puppies anymore. You'll actually have more stress since now they can easily hurt/kill each other. At one year old they are fully capable of doing some really bad things to each other and to other dogs.

The fact is, even if you fix this problem for a year, two years, three years, bitches still have a tendency to snap at each other randomly. If you want any type of a "normal" dog life, you should really think about rehoming one of them. That way...with just one you can work on focus and ignoring other dogs. You'll never be able to walk the two of them together as they don't just react to other dogs but to each other and so it would be almost impossible to get them to look at you and ignore everything else if both of them are at your side. I'm sure its possible, but this would have to be done by someone that is very very experienced at handling dogs.

As you've seen by most of the forum posts...even the most experienced of people (breeders, SAR people, Schutzhund people) have all done the crate and rotate thing. It makes for a peaceful household, with much less stress and much less worry. They don't have to be on their toes at all times, thinking a fight will break out, and so the dogs are then calmer as well.

I wouldn't give one back to your daughter either...give the dog to someone that has time for it. I swear if you were closer to me I'd really consider it. We're starting our search for a female and although I have a male already, sometimes dogs just click. If it was easy to have some prolonged meetings/play dates I would have loved to take one of those beauties off your hands.

She can't, she will have to give it back to the breeder. That can work out ok for the dog, and it can be a death sentence for the dog. It depends on how much time and energy the breeder has and how much time and energy she thinks the dog will need. It sounds like the breeder is pretty inexperienced. She probably came on a forum like this one and they told her to at least make a contract saying people must give the dog back.

Well that is what the contract says. But the OP says the breeder is up to her ears in dogs, rescues, training, etc. The OP has to consider what is best for the pup that she bought for her daughter and has been caring for.

[Dotty]

I really like that idea of taking the one for a good walk one day and the other the next day.

We used to love to take our dog who passed away, along the ocean, for long walks and a swim or two. We haven't been able to do that at all.
My husband and I can walk like that together again, if we alternate dogs. That way they both get our collective attention and training.

[wolfstraum]

Originally Posted by Dotty

The only class they have gone to is "Growl Class" which is a controlled environment where reactive dogs learn to focus on the owner and not trying to kill other dogs and people. THey can't go to normal classes as they are reactive

We have made great progress with this.

Training basic things is easy for them, it is the focus thing that we work on constantly.

Our lives are extremely stressful with the both of them. When it is only one in the house (the other goes to our daughter for a break) it is like a normal household.

Do you really think that they would thrive better apart?

YES!!!!!

They are reactive dogs - this is a problem in and of itself.
Your lives are stressful - this is going to escalate until there is some serious, $$$$$$ damage - 2 dogs trying to kill each other causes big big big vet bills...and possibly people getting hurt as well
when only one is in the house, it is like a normal household - see, you KNOW the answer!!! either your daughter takes on her dog, or you get it rehomed - and keep them separate until then....

I have had bitch fights - it is scary, it is dangerous, and there is a definite possibility of one dog killing the other as they get older, stronger and the animosity escalates - and it WILL.

Please, please, for everyone's sake - take measures to resolve this before you have a serious incident...

Lee

[onyx'girl]

I have two spayed females and have to manage them, though they are fine for the most part. I make the dominant female carry a ball in her mouth whenever they are playing(she knows she needs it too!) so the option of biting when she gets ramped up is put into that ball.
I don't know how your dogs play, but mine sound like they are killing each other, when in fact it is noise involved w/ the play. When I see posturing, I will step in and remove one.

You have working lines and they do need an outlet for their mental being. Other than walks, do you do anything with either of them? Agility, tracking or nosework, treibball, whatever to keep them mentally and physically active may help? You don't have to go to group classes for some of these activities, just have the equipment and look at some vids w/ instruction to begin.