Female litter mates, 13 mos starting to fight

[Kyleigh]

What dog training school are you considering going to? Where in Canada do you live? There are lots of Canadians on here that can guide you to the best place!

[Dotty]

Note:

If I think it is best for Ellie to be rehomed, I will do it, I am not blind or selfish when it comes to a situation like this.

[Dotty]

Originally Posted by Kyleigh

What dog training school are you considering going to? Where in Canada do you live? There are lots of Canadians on here that can guide you to the best place!

I was thinking of driving down to the Michael Ellis school in California for 2 weeks.

I am on the West Coast, in Vancouver.

I am open to suggestions, thank you.

[Kyleigh]

I can't help you LOL ... but now that others have some more info on you, they can chime in!!!

Good luck with what ever decision you decide to make!

[selzer]

I am hearing over and over, rehome one of them, give it back to the breeder.

In this case, the contract says that they must give it back to the breeder, and if they choose on rehoming, that is what they should do, but

1. What does the forum think the breeder is going to do with this dog?
A. Put it in a kennel and breed it every cycle, thankfully, not possible as it is spayed?
B. Take it to training classes and work with it until they can feel confident about rehoming it?
C. Adding it to the current dog pack, crating and rotating with the members of the pack they have?
D. Take it to the vet one last time.

Breeders should take their pups back if the new owners cannot manage it. But breeders also have a budget. If they are going to keep a place in their pack for a dog, then it really should be a dog that can produce. Because it costs money to train, to vet, to feed each dog and eventually you have a number of dogs that are all not producing, whether they are retired, or they have some physical issue, or they landed with the wrong people the first time around the block.

Sometimes breeders can find people who want an adult dog. But those people generally want an adult so that they do not have to go through the horrors of puppy raising. If they don't feel up to raising a puppy, giving them a reactive dog is not a good idea.

So if you have a conscientious breeder, they will take the dog back. And they will try to give it what it needs. Let it settle in, work with it, take it to classes, keep it safe and keep eyes and ears open for the right home for the dog, knowing full well, that the chances are, the dog will be with them for a long time, if not forever.

A smart breeder would euthanize the dog. They would feel bad about it, but if living crate/rotate for a couple of years until daughter is at a better place to take over the training and management of her dog, is too hard on a dog, then living in a kennel at the breeders the vast majority of the time, well, what exactly is that?

I am hearing an OP that is having a rough time managing two females that are close in age. The females are not trying to kill each other at this point, but it sounds like there are issues, and it may be escalating.

What to do? The atmosphere is charged with the two girls. There definitely are times when energy and excitement levels tip the scales. The rest of the time it seems like they live ok.

If the OP cares for these dogs, then I would make the following suggestions:
1. Crate them when you feed them or when you give them any high value treats. I would put both in crates, not one out and one in.

2. Take each dog separately to training classes once a week, and take each dog separately on a walk each day.

3. Do not ever take both dogs in the car -- you have marked that as a crazy time for them, where they will compete and fight. If you have to take both dogs somewhere, then I hope you have an SUV or truck that allows you to put crates in there. Then take them out separately and crate them.

If they can run in the back yard together without issue, allow them to, each day for a set time. Then they are in. The moment there is any squabbling, both dogs are crated and ignored.

Up your leadership with the dogs. Look up NILIF, and implement it.

Take the one dog with you in the morning to work, while the other is left in the house or crated, and in the afternoon take the other.

I will guaranty you that no matter how good your breeder is, she isn't going to have more time to spend with your spayed bitch pup, then you have to spend with her.

Maybe the breeder should not have sold littermates -- well, the owner said one was for the daughter.

Maybe it actually is the breeder's problem, it is. But unless you can accept whatever a breeder might choose to do with the puppy that you send back, be very careful about this decision.

The breeder may try to do the best thing for this puppy if you send it back to her, the best she can do for it, might not be anywhere close to how well you can do for the dog.

[wolfy dog]

My experience in "temporarily" taking in pets from adult children is that it tends to be forever. I would let my daughter solve this. I know she cannot handle it but you are dealing with the stress as well if I am correctly reading between the lines. Have an honest talk with her. Everyone, dog or human, is entitled to happiness and living in peace.

[Dotty]

Thank you so much for your thoughtful response!

Yes, the breeder is busy with her dogs, most are dogs that are rescues, misfits, aggressive and the parents are bought for breeding. One dog she tube feeds. I think this was her first go at breeding.

I was the only one who got them to be family pets/companions, one went to be a guard dog, the other is sickly, the other two went to be trained for Schutzand competitions.

I was coming here to look for ways to manage them and control it before it escalates. I was surprised that all the responses were to get rid of one

We are in a position to care for them financially for whatever they need, be it training, dog sitting, surgeries, or whatever. I do have time for them.

This dog would need a special family, she is reactive, accident prone, not good with kids, dogs and people, and has skin issues, which now seems like allergies. To top it off, she loves attention. Our home is better if we can sort this out.

I never ever even had rehoming her cross my mind, until people here suggested. I will look up NLILF, thank you!

We don't crate them for feeding or treats, it hasn't been a problem, maybe I should, so it doesn't become a problem. Their toys have never been an issue, they make games with the toys (I have the toy, come and get it, lets play chase!), not fight over them.

We love the dogs, both of them very much.

I think we will do more things with them on their own. I know it is stupid, but I feel really terrible taking one and leaving the other at home. The one left behind looks so sad!

Izzy is mine and Ellie is the Mr.'s responsibility. I wonder if we should switch off so they don't compete for him so, Izzy doesn't get jealous?

Also note, our daughter LOVES this dog, it is just easy for her to have Ellie live with us, you know how it is We also feel she is getting better care with us.

Originally Posted by selzer

I am hearing over and over, rehome one of them, give it back to the breeder.

In this case, the contract says that they must give it back to the breeder, and if they choose on rehoming, that is what they should do, but

1. What does the forum think the breeder is going to do with this dog?
A. Put it in a kennel and breed it every cycle, thankfully, not possible as it is spayed?
B. Take it to training classes and work with it until they can feel confident about rehoming it?
C. Adding it to the current dog pack, crating and rotating with the members of the pack they have?
D. Take it to the vet one last time.

Breeders should take their pups back if the new owners cannot manage it. But breeders also have a budget. If they are going to keep a place in their pack for a dog, then it really should be a dog that can produce. Because it costs money to train, to vet, to feed each dog and eventually you have a number of dogs that are all not producing, whether they are retired, or they have some physical issue, or they landed with the wrong people the first time around the block.

Sometimes breeders can find people who want an adult dog. But those people generally want an adult so that they do not have to go through the horrors of puppy raising. If they don't feel up to raising a puppy, giving them a reactive dog is not a good idea.

So if you have a conscientious breeder, they will take the dog back. And they will try to give it what it needs. Let it settle in, work with it, take it to classes, keep it safe and keep eyes and ears open for the right home for the dog, knowing full well, that the chances are, the dog will be with them for a long time, if not forever.

A smart breeder would euthanize the dog. They would feel bad about it, but if living crate/rotate for a couple of years until daughter is at a better place to take over the training and management of her dog, is too hard on a dog, then living in a kennel at the breeders the vast majority of the time, well, what exactly is that?

I am hearing an OP that is having a rough time managing two females that are close in age. The females are not trying to kill each other at this point, but it sounds like there are issues, and it may be escalating.

What to do? The atmosphere is charged with the two girls. There definitely are times when energy and excitement levels tip the scales. The rest of the time it seems like they live ok.

If the OP cares for these dogs, then I would make the following suggestions:
1. Crate them when you feed them or when you give them any high value treats. I would put both in crates, not one out and one in.

2. Take each dog separately to training classes once a week, and take each dog separately on a walk each day.

3. Do not ever take both dogs in the car -- you have marked that as a crazy time for them, where they will compete and fight. If you have to take both dogs somewhere, then I hope you have an SUV or truck that allows you to put crates in there. Then take them out separately and crate them.

If they can run in the back yard together without issue, allow them to, each day for a set time. Then they are in. The moment there is any squabbling, both dogs are crated and ignored.

Up your leadership with the dogs. Look up NILIF, and implement it.

Take the one dog with you in the morning to work, while the other is left in the house or crated, and in the afternoon take the other.

I will guaranty you that no matter how good your breeder is, she isn't going to have more time to spend with your spayed bitch pup, then you have to spend with her.

Maybe the breeder should not have sold littermates -- well, the owner said one was for the daughter.

Maybe it actually is the breeder's problem, it is. But unless you can accept whatever a breeder might choose to do with the puppy that you send back, be very careful about this decision.

The breeder may try to do the best thing for this puppy if you send it back to her, the best she can do for it, might not be anywhere close to how well you can do for the dog.

[selzer]

My first experience with owning bitches that did not get along was when my brother's 3 year old bitch came to live with me when his partner died and he had to move back in with our parents. My 2 year old bitch was my everything. After about two months of being together, the two girls decided they hated each other and wanted the other dead.

My brother was going to school at the time to get a bachelor of nursing. He would be in a position to take his dog back some day. After WWIII, I could have handed him the leash and said, deal with it. But I did not. I built kennels instead, and I kept them separated from that point onward. I kept them separated for two years.

Jazzy was 5 when my brother bought his house and took her back. She passed away about a year ago. I think she was 11 or 12. She had a great life. And she deserved a great life. It was temporary, the less than great life she had at my place when things were not all roses.

I think that if I had forced my brother to take her back, he would have had to give her to her breeder (she never was fixed), or drop her at a shelter. My parents were adamant that she could not come there. I cannot guaranty that she would have had any life at all, had I done that.

[Dotty]

Originally Posted by wolfy dog

My experience in "temporarily" taking in pets from adult children is that it tends to be forever. I would let my daughter solve this. I know she cannot handle it but you are dealing with the stress as well if I am correctly reading between the lines. Have an honest talk with her. Everyone, dog or human, is entitled to happiness and living in peace.

The stress is around training and walking two puppies (separately). Add in they are both reactive. I hope once the puppy stress is gone, it will be not such a big issue.

[selzer]

Originally Posted by Dotty

Thank you so much for your thoughtful response!

Yes, the breeder is busy with her dogs, most are dogs that are rescues, misfits, aggressive and the parents are bought for breeding. One dog she tube feeds. I think this was her first go at breeding.

I was the only one who got them to be family pets/companions, one went to be a guard dog, the other is sickly, the other two went to be trained for Schutzand competitions.

I was coming here to look for ways to manage them and control it before it escalates. I was surprised that all the responses were to get rid of one

We are in a position to care for them financially for whatever they need, be it training, dog sitting, surgeries, or whatever. I do have time for them.

This dog would need a special family, she is reactive, accident prone, not good with kids, dogs and people, and has skin issues, which now seems like allergies. To top it off, she loves attention. Our home is better if we can sort this out.

I never ever even had rehoming her cross my mind, until people here suggested. I will look up NLILF, thank you!

We don't crate them for feeding or treats, it hasn't been a problem, maybe I should, so it doesn't become a problem. Their toys have never been an issue, they make games with the toys (I have the toy, come and get it, lets play chase!), not fight over them.

We love the dogs, both of them very much.

I think we will do more things with them on their own. I know it is stupid, but I feel really terrible taking one and leaving the other at home. The one left behind looks so sad!

Izzy is mine and Ellie is the Mr.'s responsibility. I wonder if we should switch off so they don't compete for him so, Izzy doesn't get jealous?

Also note, our daughter LOVES this dog, it is just easy for her to have Ellie live with us, you know how it is We also feel she is getting better care with us.

It's NILIF -- Nothing In Life Is Free, it works for a lot of people. Having a pack makes using your body language and little things much more important.

I think you must be doing a lot right to have two young bitches who have been ok to this point. But now it sounds like stepping it up.

It doesn't sound stupid to feel for the dog that is not going with you. It is human though. You want to be fair to both dogs. Here is a thought, try to look at the similarities of each of your dogs. Now try and look at how they differ. Now, try and see if there are some things that one dog is likely to enjoy more than the other dog would. Take the dog that would love to run through the woods hiking, take the other dog for a run to dairy queen. They are two different individuals, and its hard, but do it all matter-of-factly.