homeopathy DOESN'T WORK - Page 4

blehmannwa · 09-13-2011, 01:24 AM

I think that some of the problems with homeopathic and holistic medicine is the potential for fraud and abuse.

paulag1955 · 09-13-2011, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blehmannwa

I think that some of the problems with homeopathic and holistic medicine is the potential for fraud and abuse.

Mainstream medical practitioners can commit fraud and abuse. There's always that potential as long as human beings are involved.

bite_me · 09-13-2011, 05:14 AM

I have provided strong evidence that homeopathy doesn't work. Many of you still don't accept it without good reason. These are the typical defenses of demonstrably incorrect arguments which people cling to. (I really don't know why they do)

1 "Everyone's opinion is equally valid"
2 "There are things we don't yet know"
3 "B is similar to A so has A's properties"
4 "Quantum physics"
5 "It's a conspiracy"
6 "You have a closed mind"

All these arguments are logical fallacies unless matched with evidence, which nobody has yet offered.

These arguments are the time-honored defenses of indefensible positions. Instead of Explaining why the position is sensible, the defender attempts to derail the conversation into a situation which becomes difficult to refute, due to no actual material being offered to refute.

CookieTN · 09-13-2011, 05:48 AM

I'm kinda neutral-ish on homeopathy. I know next to nothing about it, so I know no hard evidence for or against it.
That said, if people are in fact experiencing results from it despite any studies to the contrary, to me it kinda implies that somebody's off somewhere. (Whether they are actually experiencing benefits or not is up for debate in my mind, though. I'm just not sure.)

"There are four homeopathic hospitals in
the UK, located in London, Bristol, Liverpool and Glasgow. These hospitals fall under the
jurisdiction of their respective PCTs. A homeopathic hospital in Tunbridge Wells was
closed in 2009 following a drop in referrals to the hospital and a review by the West Kent
PCT on the commissioning of homeopathy."
I'd be interested in knowing how patients fare at those other hospitals that weren't shut down. Or if they were, it isn't mentioned here. Are they still there, and if so why are they still there if their methods are a complete failure?

I did skim 98% of the article. I haven't read up on homeopathy and to be honest I'm not really wanting to. I just lack the motivation. The article could be correct and does have a compelling argument. Not all studies are going to be the end-all be-all, though. There are studies against a raw diet, too, but most on this forum, myself included, will agree that raw is at least safely doable. Just saying.

**jocoyn** · 09-13-2011, 06:23 AM

bite me

Another thread confirmed my suspicions. You are a youth, probably highly intellegent, without enough life experience to rattle your blind faith (and it really is blind) in a certain simplistic ideology that evolved from western scientifc thought.

Many theories, long accepted as fact, are being challenged (for example, we know basic constructs behind Darwinian theories of evolution appear to be solid, but Lamarck, who we laughed at in MY middle school science class (times have changed), may actually have been onto part of the puzzle-we know evolution is not quite as simple as Darwin postulated).

Once you get a little further in your studies you really SHOULD explore quantum mechanics because it will rattle you to your foundations! [I can say that because, as a Chemist, I have been through courses in nuclear physics and quantum mechanics at the graduate level and walked away very changed]

If you look at the world with both eyes open, make your OWN choices based on your own beliefs and show a little tolerance for others (without such arrogant disdain and condescension) I think you may find this world to be a little richer and more interesting place.

Take of your blinders and filters as they are not needed to see the truth. One of the truths I have observed over the years is that biological diversity keeps our earth strong-I think the same can be said of human thought.

Die Gedanken sind frei!

GSDElsa · 09-13-2011, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bite_me

45.pdf
.

Here is a few examples of the findings;

29. The answer to why a medicine can be effective without being efficacious lies with a

phenomenon known as the placebo effect.

So, they found that it's ally psychological. Hey, IMO, if it's not hurting, and people feel better because they think they are taking life-saving syrup provided by the land of every lives forever, then get your diapers out of a ruffle and get over it.

Why does it matter to YOU if people choose to treat in this manner if it has no ill effects?

GSDElsa · 09-13-2011, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bite_me

This is not true on both accounts, I have a legitimate interest in GSDs as can be observed with my other posts.

You mean the grand total of 4 posts unrealted to this topic that don't really say much at all?

Anja1Blue · 09-13-2011, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paulag1955

Mainstream medical practitioners can commit fraud and abuse. There's always that potential as long as human beings are involved.

Exactly. Just as in any other walk of life you have to do your homework before embarking on a relationship with a medical practitioner, of whatever persuasion.. (Creditable Veterinary homeopathic doctors in the USA BTW, have to go through standard veterinary training first.)

There is no way to change this person's mind - he is stuck in his own little groove and trying to convince him otherwise is a waste of time. Steve, in your first post you say you don't have a dog currently (or at least not a GSD) - so just spouting off and copying other peoples' opinions onto a forum where many individuals have YEARS of experience is really not a very good idea. Many of us have seen firsthand the heartbreak of dealing with animals which have been compromised not just by an illness, but from the results of administering modern suppressive drugs - drugs which might alleviate the symptoms but do not cure the disease. No-one is saying that all modern medicine is bad - but it is foolish to say that alternative medicine is a load of bunk, when, as far as I can tell, you have not actually seen it "in action." I could cite many instances where my dogs have benefited from it, but you aren't the person I want to waste my time on debating. There are conditions which homeopathy can't help, we know that. There are conditions where it can be very helpful. The same can be said of modern medicine. Putting it on a level with voodoo and witchcraft only serves to show your ignorance and lack of experience.
Life is about choices - and smart people don't want to be locked into just one.
________________________________________
Susan

Anja schH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge

carmspack · 09-13-2011, 08:55 AM

at the very least if it does not work , there have not been any deaths or recalls or list of side effects , like some of the big pharma who (we put the "harm" into pharma) who list suicide , kidney damage, going blind , as side affects for something which stops you from having a stuffed up nose.
Expand you reading . Read about the characters involved in the Evolution of Evolution as it were , Lamarck , and Wallace and Darwin and others . See the race to publish . Publish or perish . Wallace from a poor background, self taught basically hands Darwin the theory. Darwin from an elite , prestigious family publishes and has his name forever attached to evolutionary theory.

Check out the Tv debate, lecture series "Big Ideas" or "The History of Science" .

Experience the world - go get a reiki treatment !! I was sceptical on that , went for one for an issue on an injury that would not budge . Without any physical touching at all , well the experience was mind-addicting better than chocolate - I'm yours ! and problem gone .
Not saying you should not be sceptical , absolutely have to keep it real, but you can't dismiss everything as there is so much which we can't fathom yet and instead of the world becoming smaller and more certain , the possibilities are expanding.
keep on growing
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs

Draugr · 09-13-2011, 12:03 PM

The harm comes because while a homeopathic remedy will do nothing to your body, often times something needs to be done.

Dead baby's parents ignored advice: QC

That's the most famous incident (at least as far as I'm aware). A baby died a horrifically painful death due to complications from an easy cured disease.

~

What's the harm in homeopathy?

This site keeps a running tally on people who died because legitimate treatment was not sought in favor of "homeopathic remedies."

~

If someone is going to a homeopath to try and alleviate pain symptoms, then fine, whatever, their loss. It's no skin off my back. But, when you start involving lives, or making major decisions for people/animals who can't make those decisions...I guess I'm a little less inclined to shrug my shoulders and say "whatever." Because "doing nothing" can be harmful in and of itself.

09-13-2011, 05:48 AM	#34 (permalink)
CookieTN Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: South/East Georgia Posts: 1,106	I'm kinda neutral-ish on homeopathy. I know next to nothing about it, so I know no hard evidence for or against it. That said, if people are in fact experiencing results from it despite any studies to the contrary, to me it kinda implies that somebody's off somewhere. (Whether they are actually experiencing benefits or not is up for debate in my mind, though. I'm just not sure.) "There are four homeopathic hospitals in the UK, located in London, Bristol, Liverpool and Glasgow. These hospitals fall under the jurisdiction of their respective PCTs. A homeopathic hospital in Tunbridge Wells was closed in 2009 following a drop in referrals to the hospital and a review by the West Kent PCT on the commissioning of homeopathy." I'd be interested in knowing how patients fare at those other hospitals that weren't shut down. Or if they were, it isn't mentioned here. Are they still there, and if so why are they still there if their methods are a complete failure? I did skim 98% of the article. I haven't read up on homeopathy and to be honest I'm not really wanting to. I just lack the motivation. The article could be correct and does have a compelling argument. Not all studies are going to be the end-all be-all, though. There are studies against a raw diet, too, but most on this forum, myself included, will agree that raw is at least safely doable. Just saying. __________________ ~Tiffany "We represent a generation that wants to turn back a nation"~from 'Looking for Angels' by Skillet Rest in peace, Cookie (1998-2011) Last edited by CookieTN; 09-13-2011 at 05:57 AM.

09-13-2011, 06:23 AM	#35 (permalink)
jocoyn Zombie Queen Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Carolina Posts: 11,812	bite me Another thread confirmed my suspicions. You are a youth, probably highly intellegent, without enough life experience to rattle your blind faith (and it really is blind) in a certain simplistic ideology that evolved from western scientifc thought. Many theories, long accepted as fact, are being challenged (for example, we know basic constructs behind Darwinian theories of evolution appear to be solid, but Lamarck, who we laughed at in MY middle school science class (times have changed), may actually have been onto part of the puzzle-we know evolution is not quite as simple as Darwin postulated). Once you get a little further in your studies you really SHOULD explore quantum mechanics because it will rattle you to your foundations! [I can say that because, as a Chemist, I have been through courses in nuclear physics and quantum mechanics at the graduate level and walked away very changed] If you look at the world with both eyes open, make your OWN choices based on your own beliefs and show a little tolerance for others (without such arrogant disdain and condescension) I think you may find this world to be a little richer and more interesting place. Take of your blinders and filters as they are not needed to see the truth. One of the truths I have observed over the years is that biological diversity keeps our earth strong-I think the same can be said of human thought. Die Gedanken sind frei! __________________ Nancy www.scsarda.org Beau -NAPWDA Certified Cadaver Dog Waiting at the Bridge (italics=GSDs) (hemangiosarcoma=blue):Grim , Cyra, Toby, Rainbow, Linus, Oscar, Arlo & Waggles Last edited by jocoyn; 09-13-2011 at 06:29 AM.

09-13-2011, 01:24 AM	#31 (permalink)
blehmannwa Elite Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Seattle Posts: 1,127	I think that some of the problems with homeopathic and holistic medicine is the potential for fraud and abuse.

09-13-2011, 05:14 AM	#33 (permalink)
bite_me Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 27	I have provided strong evidence that homeopathy doesn't work. Many of you still don't accept it without good reason. These are the typical defenses of demonstrably incorrect arguments which people cling to. (I really don't know why they do) 1 "Everyone's opinion is equally valid" 2 "There are things we don't yet know" 3 "B is similar to A so has A's properties" 4 "Quantum physics" 5 "It's a conspiracy" 6 "You have a closed mind" All these arguments are logical fallacies unless matched with evidence, which nobody has yet offered. These arguments are the time-honored defenses of indefensible positions. Instead of Explaining why the position is sensible, the defender attempts to derail the conversation into a situation which becomes difficult to refute, due to no actual material being offered to refute.

09-13-2011, 08:55 AM	#39 (permalink)
carmspack Crowned Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: ontario - Posts: 5,512	at the very least if it does not work , there have not been any deaths or recalls or list of side effects , like some of the big pharma who (we put the "harm" into pharma) who list suicide , kidney damage, going blind , as side affects for something which stops you from having a stuffed up nose. Expand you reading . Read about the characters involved in the Evolution of Evolution as it were , Lamarck , and Wallace and Darwin and others . See the race to publish . Publish or perish . Wallace from a poor background, self taught basically hands Darwin the theory. Darwin from an elite , prestigious family publishes and has his name forever attached to evolutionary theory. Check out the Tv debate, lecture series "Big Ideas" or "The History of Science" . Experience the world - go get a reiki treatment !! I was sceptical on that , went for one for an issue on an injury that would not budge . Without any physical touching at all , well the experience was mind-addicting better than chocolate - I'm yours ! and problem gone . Not saying you should not be sceptical , absolutely have to keep it real, but you can't dismiss everything as there is so much which we can't fathom yet and instead of the world becoming smaller and more certain , the possibilities are expanding. keep on growing Carmen Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs

09-13-2011, 12:03 PM	#40 (permalink)
Draugr Master Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 844	The harm comes because while a homeopathic remedy will do nothing to your body, often times something needs to be done. Dead baby's parents ignored advice: QC That's the most famous incident (at least as far as I'm aware). A baby died a horrifically painful death due to complications from an easy cured disease. ~ What's the harm in homeopathy? This site keeps a running tally on people who died because legitimate treatment was not sought in favor of "homeopathic remedies." ~ If someone is going to a homeopath to try and alleviate pain symptoms, then fine, whatever, their loss. It's no skin off my back. But, when you start involving lives, or making major decisions for people/animals who can't make those decisions...I guess I'm a little less inclined to shrug my shoulders and say "whatever." Because "doing nothing" can be harmful in and of itself.

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