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Demodectic mange - What to expect?

6K views 13 replies 7 participants last post by  selzer 
#1 ·
Thanks to Carmspack, yesterday I applied borax/peroxide. Today I just put some diluted lavender on the spot to soothe it. I added probiotics to food also. How do I know if it's working? The bald spot is quite a bit bigger. The flaky skin is removed, exposing terrible looking follicles. I've googled a hundred pages, but I can't find out what to expect during treatment. Here are pics, one from before borax/peroxide, the other is today after lavender. Are they dying? What is the proper treatment schedule for the borax/peroxide? I've read a lot of conflicting info, and don't want to make it worse. Thank you!
 

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#3 ·
I can understand why you would want to try natural treatments but since the mange is getting worse I would suggest taking your dog to the vet. The vet can determine which type of mange it is and then prescribe treatment. At the same time, you could start your dog on the supplements and diet changes as suggested by Carmen.
 
#4 ·
Hi Robin,

I'm one who would favor the "natural" route.
CONVENTIONAL/ALLOPATHIC TREATMENT

"A lot of Veterinarians in conventional veterinary medicine still use a toxic chemical called Amitraz or Ivermectin to kill the mites. These products can reduce the function of the hypothalamus, which helps regulate the body's metabolism by controlling hormone release in the body." per whole dog


Your dogs symptoms can get worse before it gets better, so you need to give this some time.

I suggest sending a PM to Carmspack since you have begun this regime with her direction. Click on her name and you'll see "Send a Private Message". She will be able to go into detail about this.

Hopefully you've changed the food.

2 quotes Per Dr. J. Thomason:
"When our dog's immune system is healthy, the body is able to destroy the yeasts and keep them under control. However, when the immune system is weak, the yeast, being an opportunistic feeder, may produce in mass amounts causing toxins that disable the immune system and prevent it from functioning properly. At this point, the system becomes altered causing a host of health problems. So, It goes without saying that an overgrowth of yeast toxins will affect your pet's immune system, nervous system, and their endocrine system. Since these systems are all inter-connected, yeast toxins play a major role in causing allergies, bladder infections, skin disorders and many other health problems.
Normally, the large intestine hosts a balance of beneficial bacteria (Lactobacillus acidophilus and Lactobacillus bifidus) along with yeast. The harmful Candida is usually kept in check by the Lactobacillus bacteria, partially by the production of lactic acid. Candida actually provides growth factors for Lactobacillus. They exist in a natural balance, until something happens to upset that balance.
The main cause of yeast infections, such as Candida Albicans, could be caused from any of the following: grain-based foods, drugs, chemicals and poisons on your lawns, cooked foods, anything in a can or a bag, vaccines which compromise and destroy the natural immune system, antibiotics which kill the friendly bacteria (which, would ordinarily fight and overwhelm the yeast), steroids (that shut down the body's ability to fight back), any and all other drugs, chemicals and poisons, including frontline, advantage, program, heart guard, etc, can compromise the immune system."
AND:

“Demodex mites feed on cellular proteins, systemic yeast, dietary yeast and/or sugar in the system. Remember, mites feed on the yeast living in the body, and systemic yeast feed on nutritional yeast and sugars (carbohydrates/vegetables and grains). If you want to break the cycle and weaken or starve the systemic yeast so that the mites are not able to colonize in the pores. do NOT feed grains in the diet (NO WHEAT, OATS, CORN, BARLEY, MILLET OR YEAST OF ANY KIND which includes brewers or nutritional yeast). "


Don't forget to check the ingredients in the treats you are feeding.


Another "natural" item that can help, but not used at the same time as the borax/peroxide.
Collodial Silver is a natural anti-biotic and anti-fungal and is used as a topical:

https://glacierpeakholistics.com/collections/frontpage/products/colloidal-silver-2-oz-spray
&
An Herbal called Glacier Peak Holistics Gold .- added to his food can help the mange and the yeast:
https://glacierpeakholistics.com/collections/frontpage/products/glacier-peak-gold-1oz-tincture

"A unique blend of antibiotic/anti-viral/anti-fungal herbs that can be used for bacterial infections, as well as mites that cause mange. Also works well to balance candida albicans yeast overgrowth. Ingredients: Olive Leaf, Mustard Seed, Black Seed, Pau D'Arco, Cloves, Astragalus, Lobelia, Slippery Elm"

You could follow the above with an Herbal Immune System Builder Glacier Peak Immune for a few months to rebuild his system: Peak Immune Tincture is used seasonally to supercharge your pet's immune system. Crafted with 100% organic herbs. https://glacierpeakholistics.com/collections/frontpage/products/peak-immune-tincture-2oz


Moms :)
 
#5 ·
No disrespect to anyone and OP, you can certainly handle this as you see fit.... I adopted my hound mix, when he was 12 weeks old. He was a shelter mix and I already knew he had Demodex. I took him to the vet. He was started on oral Ivomec. The Demodex completely cleared up and he has never had it again. He also had no issues from the Ivermectin. He is almost 5 years old now.

Are you even positive it is Demodex? If not, you need to get a diagnosis.
 
#6 ·
Thanks everyone for the input. Since I'm new to the forum I wasn't entitled to PM anyone. I tried before. I may be close to the target number of posts to unlock that feature. I've read hundreds of pages about this problem, and different treatments. He's taking supplements, switched food. I never thought about the treats! Thanks for the reminder. I've taken close up pics every day, so I could compare. Today the skin looks quite a bit better. While a vet has not diagnosed it, I looked at a sample under a microscope and saw what I think are the mites. Long bodies. They looked dead. That doesn't mean they're all dead, and it doesn't mean that I identified what I saw correctly. Yes it's a risk. I think under the circumstances it's worth trying the natural approach first. I've read a lot about Amitraz and Ivermectin, and while plenty of people have had success, I'm only willing to do that as a last resort. Since this is the road I decided to go down, I was hoping someone could give input on what to expect from the process since those are the details I have not been able to find online. If what I am experiencing is what one would expect, then that is a welcome confirmation. If not, then obviously I need to do something different. Thanks again to all, I really appreciate any and all input.
 
#7 ·
I respect your right to go the natural approach. I have no experience with that, so am unable to offer any input. You could continue with the natural approach, even if you went to the vet for a diagnosis. Without a diagnosis, you can't be sure what you are treating.

All the best to you and your pup. I hope he responds well to the treatment.
 
#8 ·
I have experience -- and I've shared with this forum before -- dogs that were dumped onto my property - come home to find one in an exercise pen . It looked like a scabby hairless thing - the entire body .

I took the dog to the vet said it was the worst he had seen . Was doubtful if establishing health again would be possible. If things had not turned around I would have euthanized the dog .

That was a long time ago before such beautiful things like the vetionx defendex -- sulfur , lots of sulfur - topical and dietary --- good nutrition , everything to support his crashed immune system.

that dog recovered - grew a beautiful coat -- and sturdy health -- vet monitored the dog every month ---

eventually dog was given to a family that was so appreciative that every Christmas I would get a photo-card with the kids growing up and the dog right there in the center - loved by all and looking good.

you caught yours early --- -

real vitamin C -- will help repair damaged skin (collagen)
 
#9 ·
I have experience -- and I've shared with this forum before -- dogs that were dumped onto my property - come home to find one in an exercise pen . It looked like a scabby hairless thing - the entire body .

I took the dog to the vet said it was the worst he had seen . Was doubtful if establishing health again would be possible. If things had not turned around I would have euthanized the dog .

That was a long time ago before such beautiful things like the vetionx defendex -- sulfur , lots of sulfur - topical and dietary --- good nutrition , everything to support his crashed immune system.

that dog recovered - grew a beautiful coat -- and sturdy health -- vet monitored the dog every month ---

eventually dog was given to a family that was so appreciative that every Christmas I would get a photo-card with the kids growing up and the dog right there in the center - loved by all and looking good.

you caught yours early --- -

real vitamin C -- will help repair damaged skin (collagen)
Carmen, I have the utmost respect for your opinion. I know you understand the health of a dog from the inside out. I believe you have given excellent advise in supporting this pup.

My problem here is, unless I missed something, the OPs dog has not been to the vet. The dog has not been diagnosed. The dog you cared for was taken to the vet. And yes, Kudos to you for saving his life, when the vet had little hope. But you still took it to the vet.

According to the OPs other thread, hair loss was first notice around the end of April. The spot is getting bigger. It's close to a month now. The dog has still not been seen by a vet and diagnosed. I had a 2 year old GSD, noticed a small bald spot on her face and had her into the vet the next day.

Yes, it's a bald spot, in a typical place to be Demodex. Yes, there is a good chance it is Demodex. But - what if it's not and we are diagnosing this puppy on the internet from a picture?
 
#11 · (Edited)
I took the dog to the vet because it was not my dog .
I didn't know if someone would try to get it back -- or try to blame me for its condition.
This dog was very ill .
It was truly a life or death situation .
We never had any one attempt to claim the dog and never found out who it belonged to.

People knew I was a soft touch for animals so finding an abandoned animal in an empty run was not that unusual.

We've had litters of beagles, several pregnant cats , mangy dogs , on and on.

Lots of experience .

ringworm --- and mites respond to improving the immune system - without which you can have no lasting change
and both respond to sulfur - so MSM with food , and sulfur topically -- sulfur soaps , salves , borax .

I have a basic kit for the you-never-know-when-it-might-come-in-handy dept . In that kit is Davis Lime Sulfur
useful as a dip or rinse https://www.medi-vet.com/Davis-Lime-Sulfur-Dip-Concentrate-p/16178.htm
I also have Nu-Stock . very high sulfur content -- Nu-Stock - Topical Skin Product - Herbal Healer Academy

Have used Nu-Stock on a dog that had malassezia -- in addition to an anti fungal and general health boost diet

for ringworm or other fungal problems there is also Mane n Tail Pro-Tect - antimicrobial , anti fungal ,

People have long enjoyed sulfurous baths --- The classic Roman baths at Bath England , the sulfur springs in Iceland

Coconut oil and tea tree oil mix are good for both ringworm and mange .

I am never adverse to getting a Vet diagnosis or a Dr's medical diagnosis.
Have recommended it many times on the forum - go find out .
My fear is that they come running at you with antibiotics which are totally inappropriate or uncalled for which creates another set of problems - vicious circle --
or come running with treatments which have so many side effects and/or merely suppress the symptom but do not address the cause .

The better you know what your treatment options are the better it is for you .

these are some options.
 
#12 ·
Thanks again too all. Thank you, Carmen, for taking the time to add other treatments and options. Your thorough input is appreciated. I am not unwilling to take dogs to the vet, but I'm not a rush the dog to the vet the next day because of a skin condition person anymore. I've had a bad experience in the past with my vet trying unsuccessfully to treat a skin problem that he never could properly diagnose. Instead spending years and a lot of money testing this, that and the other, administering toxic treatments, and not solving the problem. The side effects were awful. I researched possibilities on this current problem prior to posting here. I thought it was demodectic mange, although it could be something else. Rather than lead anyone's conclusion I just asked an open ended question. A few people said that's what they saw also. Rather that blindly trusting a random person online, I vetted the carmspack profile. Yes, I stalked your page, and reviewed a ton of your responses to other people's questions. Once satisfied I felt really comfortable proceeding the way I am. I trust your judgement here. Also, while I am obviously not a vet, and I'm not qualified to diagnose any animal for anything, I do have a high quality microscope and I did see mites. Should the treatment cease to be effective, or the condition dramatically change for the worse I'll go to the vet. Thank you all again. I am grateful for passionate people who love dogs.
 
#13 ·
A million thanks to Carmen! I did exactly what you said. All of it. My dog is doing great, and he looks beautiful! I was worried not knowing how long it would take to see any improvement, especially when it looked worse initially, but eventually his skin started to look a little better every day. I noticed some hairs growing back, and kept up the protocol. It took a while for him to look normal again, but now he does. I'm so thankful for your help, and grateful for the support. I'm especially thankful that I didn't panic, and resort to harsh poisons. Keep up the good work. If anyone else happens upon this thread while researching solutions for their dog, I can tell you that Carmen knows her stuff. Thanks again!!!
 
#14 ·
Glad your dog is doing great.

My vet says Demodex takes six weeks whether you treat it or not, treat it meaning with mitoban baths. Now it's been 3 months since your dog had the issue, but I am guessing by six weeks he was looking a lot better, probably better enough that most would say, solved. Usually with generalized (over the whole body, like Carmen talked about) they say to treat it. But especially with puppies, the immune system needs to catch up, and the harsh chemicals actually attack the immune system, so you can actually do worse going to the vet with something like this than and experienced GSD breeder, like Carmen.

Vets know a lot. They have a lot of education, but it is not even just one species or genus. They have to be proficient in treating horses and fish, cows and cats, dogs, and dogs and dogs, birds and reptiles, swine, chickens, etc. They also have to be surgeons and proficient at diagnosing with a variety of tests, and managers of people and up to scruff on business/government and so on and so forth. So it is a lot of school but it is a little in a lot of areas. Yes they can usually diagnose a dog with demodex, usually. But they are not necessarily going to be the best person to go to when it comes to GSD skin problems. Someone who has dedicated their life to the genetics, nutrition, health, etc of a specific breed of dog can have much better information a lot of the time.

And yes, demodex does generally look worse before it gets better, even with the treatment that vets give.
 
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