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post #1 of 120 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 05:30 PM Thread Starter
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Help with Mystery Illness

We have battled coccidia several times with Roscoe. After this last round, we did a preemptive treatment two weeks ago just to make sure it all got wiped out.

Well Monday he started showing symptoms again. The same symptoms. Reverse sneezing, heavy drooling, and general discomfort which turned into nausea and vomiting on Tuesday. Three times Tuesday morning he vomited, all before he even had breakfast. I called the vet and she found a time to work us in. I fully expected this to be the coccidia again, but his fecal sample was negative. She even sent a sample off to another lab, which confirmed it was negative.

She gave him some anti nausea meds, which seemed to manage him yesterday. He was able to eat all his food without throwing up anymore. Today, he has thrown up twice, the first time just phlegm and the second time a little bit of food. Overall he has kept his food down, but seems to be more uncomfortable now this evening.

So now I have a few questions.

1) Is it possible for him to have coccidia even if it isn't showing up in his stool?

2) Assuming that it isn't coccidia, what else are we looking at that could be causing these symptoms?

3) The reverse sneezing almost seems like he's just trying to clear a bunch of mucous. Should we be looking in that direction and considering the nausea secondary?

Any and all opinions are welcome. Roscoe isn't in a ton of pain like he has been the last two times, so this is not quite as hard on us, but it's still tough to see him sick. And we definitely want to see him get better quickly. Thanks everyone.

Happy to be here.

RIP Roscoe 6/13/17

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post #2 of 120 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 06:14 PM
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I've often had coccidia take several rounds of Ponazuril with foster dogs that had bad cases of it. If you sent it out for lab analysis, I'd trust that result. You can always re-run it and send it to a second lab if you're skeptical.

Coccidia trashes the GI system. There's one rurual shelter that I sometimes pull from that seems like it's crawling with it -- every dog I've ever pulled from them had it badly. Watching a dog crying in pain while it tries to poop is SO heart-breaking! So I get how badly you want for this to be over.

It sometimes takes several months of supportive care for their GI tract to normalize. I suspect that it can also impact the immune system, and make them susceptible to whatever else is out there. I recall feeling like my coccidia pups needed a good bit TLC for a while even after treatment (probiotics, enzymes, high quality food, repeated vet checks, etc.).

When I hear mucous and/or respiratory symptoms and GI symptoms both hitting at once, distemper is always in the back of my mind. It's unlikely (esp. in a vaxed dog), but I'd really like to hear the vet say, "Nope, this isn't that." I don't want to unduly worry you -- it's not likely -- I just would want it ruled out, if it were my dog.
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post #3 of 120 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 06:21 PM Thread Starter
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I've often had coccidia take several rounds of Ponazuril with foster dogs that had bad cases of it. If you sent it out for lab analysis, I'd trust that result. You can always re-run it and send it to a second lab if you're skeptical.

Coccidia trashes the GI system. There's one rurual shelter that I sometimes pull from that seems like it's crawling with it -- every dog I've ever pulled from them had it badly. Watching a dog crying in pain while it tries to poop is SO heart-breaking! So I get how badly you want for this to be over.

It sometimes takes several months of supportive care for their GI tract to normalize. I suspect that it can also impact the immune system, and make them susceptible to whatever else is out there. I recall feeling like my coccidia pups needed a good bit TLC for a while even after treatment (probiotics, enzymes, high quality food, repeated vet checks, etc.).

When I hear mucous and/or respiratory symptoms and GI symptoms both hitting at once, distemper is always in the back of my mind. It's unlikely (esp. in a vaxed dog), but I'd really like to hear the vet say, "Nope, this isn't that." I don't want to unduly worry you -- it's not likely -- I just would want it ruled out, if it were my dog.
Thank you for the response. I trust the lab result, as I believe it was sent to NC State, which has a very respected vet school to my knowledge.

I figured that having gone through rounds of this must have had a toll on his GI/immune system. I ordered some supplements for his GI system, so hopefully they will help as well.

The odd thing is that he hasn't really had diarrhea any of the times.

I'll definitely keep that in mind about distemper. He has been vaccinated, and has only been around dogs who are vaccinated, but I understand things can still happen.

He has been sleeping for a little while so right now he is feeling okay. He ate a little bit of food as well.

Thanks again for the reply.

Happy to be here.

RIP Roscoe 6/13/17

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post #4 of 120 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 06:28 PM
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Good luck! Please try to update this thread and let us know how your pup is doing! These mystery illness threads hitting multiple organ systems always worry me.
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post #5 of 120 (permalink) Old 05-19-2017, 12:03 AM Thread Starter
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Thought we turning a corner this evening, but I just woke up to him whining after throwing up in his crate. Now he's really restless and uncomfortable, and starting to whine louder. I'll be calling the vet again in the morning to see what we can do from here.

Happy to be here.

RIP Roscoe 6/13/17

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post #6 of 120 (permalink) Old 05-19-2017, 09:29 AM Thread Starter
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He finally settled down last night and slept through this morning. He kept his food and medicine down this morning, but just threw up phlegm a little bit ago. Now he's hiding in small spaces which is what he does when he really feels bad. Waiting for a phone call from the vet and then we will figure out the next move.

Happy to be here.

RIP Roscoe 6/13/17

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post #7 of 120 (permalink) Old 05-19-2017, 09:38 AM
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You might try some probiotics.. ProBios comes in a very easy to dispense tube and you can get it from Walmart, a feed store, etc.. Anyhow, a pea size amount (is for horses, so very condensed) to a dime size (per my vet) might really help your dog.. sounds like his GI tract is really stressed and that stress adds more stress,....vicious cycle.. My girl used to get an upset tummy upon waking and vomited, or just wouldn't eat.. I would give her a little ProBios and I mean almost immediately, she wanted to eat.. I think once she knew it worked, it was psycological but whatever, it worked... Not saying ProBios will cure him, just maybe bring some relief at the moment and help rebound his system a little... Hope he gets better soon.
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post #8 of 120 (permalink) Old 05-19-2017, 09:54 AM
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okay , hard questions in order to take a different approach because what you are doing is not working.

"Well Monday he started showing symptoms again. The same symptoms. Reverse sneezing, heavy drooling, and general discomfort which turned into nausea and vomiting on Tuesday. "

how do you connect this to coccidiosis? Pups are vulnerable to coccidia --- once a more mature and proficient immune system develops dogs tend to take care of this .
Albon is a good anti-protozoal .

Consider a microbiome overhaul - probiotics and digestive enzymes.

Consider , for respiratory lysine , schizandra (adaptogen) .
Consider serrapeptase for mucosal problems - and for microbial or protoza which shield themselves with mucus to evade the immune responses -- .

N-AC and glutathione. Stimulate bodies macrophage activity .

Carmen

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post #9 of 120 (permalink) Old 05-19-2017, 10:03 AM Thread Starter
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okay , hard questions in order to take a different approach because what you are doing is not working.

"Well Monday he started showing symptoms again. The same symptoms. Reverse sneezing, heavy drooling, and general discomfort which turned into nausea and vomiting on Tuesday. "

how do you connect this to coccidiosis? Pups are vulnerable to coccidia --- once a more mature and proficient immune system develops dogs tend to take care of this .
Albon is a good anti-protozoal .

Consider a microbiome overhaul - probiotics and digestive enzymes.

Consider , for respiratory lysine , schizandra (adaptogen) .
Consider serrapeptase for mucosal problems - and for microbial or protoza which shield themselves with mucus to evade the immune responses -- .

N-AC and glutathione. Stimulate bodies macrophage activity .
The reason I associated it with coccidiosis is because both of the times that he has had coccidiosis, these have been the main symptoms. Each time the vet expressed surprise because of how regular his stool has been. She even said she would note him for future cases because his symptoms have been different than typically expected.

Albon is what he has been treated with for the two previous bouts. Last time he got a preventative treatment two weeks after finishing the primary treatment. That was about two weeks ago.

I will look into everything you recommended. Thank you for the reply.

I should also note that his temperature was normal at the vet Tuesday.

I also forgot to add: Roscoe is just over 5 months old.

Happy to be here.

RIP Roscoe 6/13/17

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Last edited by np307; 05-19-2017 at 10:05 AM.
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post #10 of 120 (permalink) Old 05-19-2017, 10:32 AM
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because those symptoms were present doesn't mean that coccidia was causal .

how do you do a preventive on a protozoa when all indications and examinations show you there
are none -- if a bear enters your cabin you shot the bear -- you don't unload your rifle in the cabin
when there is no bear-hazard , to keep a bear away

the best preventive after treatment is immune competence .
if the dog tests clear on several tests -- your preventive should be the environment
and the immune
keep the environment clean . Benefect Benefect Botanical Disinfectants & Cleaners for the Insurance Restoration Industry good stuff .

albon is generally safe when given properly . It disrupts a vitamin production --B 9
and that is how it decimates the protozoa .
You may want to make sure that the dog is getting adequate B vitamins (raw fed?) ---
B 1 , niacin is important for mucus membranes -- 9 folate for liver and that would involve
glutathione again and that is a master enzymes -- see N-AC , and lysine

address the general health of the body --- no more toxins ---

has the dog had rabies vaccine recently -- reverse sneezing can show up post vaccination -- there are homeopathic remedies -- lyssin (Peter Dobias) .

is the reverse sneezing connected to a protein ? An food sensitivity , which the dog may very well have developed because of the damage the coccidia does , needs to be taken care of with repair of the gut and installing a healthy microbiome via probiotics .

Carmen

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