Liffey went to the holistic vet - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-15-2017, 09:54 PM Thread Starter
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Liffey went to the holistic vet

I made the appointment three weeks ago and finally, FINALLY, we went to the holistic vet, the highly esteemed Dr. Doug at Beaver Animal Clinic. I was thoroughly impressed but not surprised.

He was great. He spent the full hour listening and talking to me about the whole long story of our situation with the intermittent GI issues. He sent us home with a new probiotic (I hadn't noticed any difference with the Animal Essentials one). This one is called VetriScience... Vetri Mega Probiotic. Anyone used it? It's REALLY expensive ($63 for 120 tablets or 2 months' worth). He also gave us Six Gentleman Health Concerns Chinese traditional herbal supplement, which I have absolutely no idea how I will get my dog to eat - hopefully I can hide it in tripe. But they're big tablets and he's getting 6/day and he's the most clever pill-avoider ever. I'll work on it. Anyone used these??

We also made a plan to switch to cooked beef (he felt raw would be too risky with his GI symptoms and cooked is far better than kibble and far more cost effective than Ziwipeak), with THK base mix and tripe/eggs (because he's super fussy but loves those things).

I found happy critter pet food which sources grass-fed local human-grade beef at $2.80/lb but the problem is they only deliver 1 day a month to my area and I'd have to buy like 50lb at once which I can't store in my freezer. Maybe I could buy 20lb from them, and supplement with another source. Anyone know where to get inexpensive grass-fed beef in the Pittsburgh area? Tomorrow I'm going to call some butchers and see if they have any less desirable cuts that they will sell me for cheap.

This whole thing has been so overwhelming and frustrating but I'm ready to attack these GI issues with renewed force, lol.
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post #2 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-15-2017, 11:36 PM
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Happy to hear you got into the holistic vet and have a plan to work with. Time to find an inexpensive small chest freezer. I have a 7 cu. ft one and it holds a lot of meat.

Ziva 03.07.2013
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post #3 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-16-2017, 03:00 AM
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Agreed...can you find space in a corner for a small chest freezer? They are pretty inexpensive (and often available used...).
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post #4 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-16-2017, 09:10 AM
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SO glad you had a successful visit with the Holistic Vet! YEAH!

Yes, all ProBiotic's are not created equal!

Although Vetri Science has quality products and are NASC certified, I don't usually suggest some of their items b/c a lot of them (like the probiotics) contain Brewer's Yeast which could possibly cause dogs to itch.

Go to this page to research companies to see if you can get it any cheaper.

Where to Buy | Vetri-Science Laboratories


I love some of the names they give Chinese Herbals!
You can also scout out the "Six Gentlemen" on different sites to see if you can get it any cheaper. Just make sure it contains the exact ingredients (and - in order of list) as some companies may differ slightly in their compounds. Here is one for $59.50 - 270 tablets

https://www.pureformulas.com/six-gen...-concerns.html


Watch the fat content of cuts the local butcher's may give you. You don't want a gut upset from too much, since Liffey already has had stomach issues.


Keep us posted on how things progress.

Moms
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post #5 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-16-2017, 09:13 AM
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Last week I met with an "alternative medical" friend and I was saying that I need to increase my knowledge on TCM .
As a fun-test she would name a tcm and I would counter with an equivalent chosen from traditional herb or ayurvedic .

not familiar with the Six Gentlemen - but I see that it addresses balancing and supporting the spleen..
TCM recognizes the very important role of the spleen , while barely remembered in traditional western medicine.
The liver and spleen should be addressed in tandem - more on that later.
Okay then . Here is how you can continue to enhance this direction of helping your dog with common food sources.

this will have more meaning to some than others ** the spleen produces macrophages

There are reasons why I incorporate these "ingredients" into the supplements --
Ginger - this one is even used in TCM -- good for digestion, detox and immune
Garlic,
Cumin
turmeric
blueberries, carrots, celery leaf , red and green bell peppers - apple and beets papaya (papain) in another -- all have
detoxifying enzymes which support spleen.
omega 3 -- fish oil , oily fish (herring / salmon) ,
coconut oil
seeds pumpkin , hemp

keep hydrated -- you can blitz some cucumber or watermelon which also have electrolytes

feed spleen ! go to the butcher and ask for it or go to the Asian market and ask for it .
I include spleen as part of my dogs' organ mix -- get spleen at least twice a week - sometimes
ground into a ground chicken and bones mix - sometimes a big chunk which fits the palm of my hand.

It is inexpensive . Texture is between liver and lung so might take some getting used to for handling.
Never met a dog who didn't scarf it .

Liver --- another detoxifying organ . Support this in tandem with the spleen to optimize results.
In any case the whole body should always be "fed" for best function.

Here is where a fabulous bone broth , stimulating the master enzyme glutathione comes in .

Collect cartilaginous bones -- chicken necks (generally neck bones are rich sources) or beef or pork.
shanks -- , chicken frames , knuckle bones - knee caps , pork snouts - cow lips (yes you can buy them!)
bring to boil - put lid on allow to simmer at low temperature for a few hours or safely overnight in a slow cooker.
Remove and toss bones . Reserve gel bone broth and give to dog --- 1/4 cup mixed into food .

If the vet wants you to stick with beef for the time being then use beef neck, beef shank , knuckle bone


The probiotics ?
It is missing some important enzymes which have specific action on leaky gut -- lactobacillus rhamnosus
being one of them.
AND lactobacillus rhamnosus stimulates antibodies to fight infection --- mmmm -- just what the spleen's function is .
It does have lactobacillus plantarum and that is a good one for leaky gut .

the journey begins
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post #6 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-16-2017, 11:24 AM
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people tend to forget about the spleen --- until they are faced with hemangiosarcoma .

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post #7 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-16-2017, 12:28 PM
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Carmen, at the risk of going off topic, do you think there's a link between hemangio and lack of spleen-focused nutrients in the diet? The current research is focusing on genetics, but maybe the bad genes don't have to be turned on (epigenetics)?
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post #8 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-16-2017, 12:35 PM
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Carmen, at the risk of going off topic, do you think there's a link between hemangio and lack of spleen-focused nutrients in the diet? The current research is focusing on genetics, but maybe the bad genes don't have to be turned on (epigenetics)?
Partly . Will be spending good portion of day with that professional (friend).
Will continue discussion.

The body works in harmony -- liver and spleen and gall are connected .

You want to eliminate inflammation whenever possible to stop cancerous cells from
gaining foot hold . You want to promote apotosis .

The best ground breaking research is not focusing on genetics -- but on the switches which halt or assist cancerous cells.

This is discussed at length in the new , technical , book authored by Dr Ian Billinghurst "Pointing the Bone at Cancer" --

and other authors which I have in my personal reference library often mentioned in other threads.

well covered in the Ty Bollinger interviews with researchers in his "Truth about Cancer" documentary.

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post #9 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-16-2017, 04:33 PM Thread Starter
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I'm worried about feeding organs like liver and spleen of animals about whose nutrition I have absolutely no information or idea. And also, I want to feed cooked for now - can you cook organ meat? I don't eat meat so I have no idea about these things.. I was just going to boil the meat... ???

No local butcher than I can find has what I'm looking for but I'll keep calling around. I hate buying meat. It's so sketchy. You never can know what conditions the animal was raised under, what it was fed, what medications/chemicals were applied... meh. Prices are through the roof. $7/lb for grass fed beef? Forget it. I'm aiming for $2/lb.

What do you guys think about THK dehydrated bone broth? (If he will eat it.. which is doubtful... why is he so fussy??)
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post #10 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-16-2017, 05:15 PM
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Yep, I've cooked organ meat for my dog before we transitioned him to raw. I've also cooked a lot of it for foster dogs with various ailments, since they're often too immune-compromised for raw.

I've boiled a lot of beef and chicken livers (and mixed ground organs) for anorexic foster dogs at death's door with severe, life-threatening respiratory infections -- it's often the one thing I can get them to eat, when they're shutting down, giving up on the fight.

You can also use the cooking water to reconstitute any base mix you might use (like THK). Skim off the fat when it cools and then store the cooking water in mason jars in the fridge for mixing up your THK -- no reason to waste that nutrition.

When I get the organs ground up from the butcher, I have sometimes made organ-rich meatballs (organ mix plus ground heart, tongue or whatever), with organic oats, molasses, and farmer's market eggs -- then bake. I try to keep some of those in my freezer for sick/emaciated foster dogs.

The smell of organ meat cooking is intense -- do it on a nice afternoon when you can open all the windows and put on the house fan. You will have a dog drooling in the kitchen over the smell -- I've never seen dogs go nuts for anything the way they do for boiled liver.

For $2/lb, you aren't going to get grass-fed. However, even grocery store beef is going to be better than kibble beef. It's a spectrum -- don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, and do the best you can while you find better sources. Call the local producers (slaughter houses) that sell at farmer's markets and to the restaurant trade -- sometimes they'll cheaply sell the unsavory organs humans don't want.

Like you, I don't eat meat and find it revolting. The one benefit to me is that liver, spleen, and kidney is no more revolting to me than hamburger -- it's all gross, so I'm not any more disgusted by the organs that I am by a package of steak. I just pull out the rubber gloves and get it done. I have a separate large pot for the dog's food, separate red-handled, slotted cooking spoons and cutting knives, red cutting board, etc. It's all very easy to identify as the dogs' "meat preparation stuff."
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