our EPI/SIBO bloodwork results - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 03:51 PM Thread Starter
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our EPI/SIBO bloodwork results

So after Ghost came home from vet Friday evening, all day Saturday, and Sunday morning, we had 'normal' poop(for her, anyway lol). Then, boom. Diarrhea 4 times last night. I HATE this neverending cycle. To top that off, my vet called, Ghost's bloodwork was all within normal range(he is giving me a copy of all the labwork). So at this point, negative for EPI or SIBO. Her third direct float also came back negative for giardia and all the rest. Vet sent us home with Panacur and mentioned that whipworm was hard to see on a float so just in case...

I asked him what he thought about IBD being a possibility and he said he was afraid it could be, though it's not usually seen in puppies as young as she is. (I know you've just been down this road @Thecowboysgirl) I know diagnosing IBD involves endoscopy, putting dog under, biopsies, etc. He told me it was expensive and we just can't afford that right this minute.


So - we going to start with the elimination diet... trial and error I guess. Here's the kicker... vet wants us to put her on Science Diet ZD.... I really don't even know how to feel about that because I know about all the good hype, and def know about all the bad hype too. Not to mention my husband will literally crap a golden brick when he sees a 25 lb bag of dog food costs $100. Plus we JUST started feeding her Nature's Variety Instinct Limited so I mean we haven't even given that one a chance yet. I feel like I'm trying to dig out of a hole and all it is is quicksand. No progress and all frustration.

Ghost - our first WGSD, parvo survivor, 9/30/16

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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 04:18 PM
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This pup is still young, right? And had parvo? I don't know that much about parvo but is it possible that her system was just weakened and hasn't yet been able to recover? And also didn't she have some rare worms or was that someone else...I think there are two whites having stomach problems on here right now so I may be co fused.

My boy had more pudding poops than I cared for in his first year. Best I csn tell there were two major factors: Fromm just didn't agree with him and also he was super into eating horrible crap for awhile and I had a hard time getting that under control. By that I mean dead animal carcasses (that earned us a vet visit for explosive diarrhea), and scat.

He will still get a loose ish stool if he eats too many training treats but switching to Victor high energy kibble was a game changer for him.

Anyway, I did put him on Purina EN for awhile and it helped. I had the same experience with my old girl, when she was eating a bunch of expensive stuff including freeze dried raw, she was not doing well and she was able to stabilize on Purina EN and also did well on Royal Canin ultanimo (well, her stools were good, the nausea continued).

Yes the ingredients in these perscription diets are nasty but sometimes they do help to stabilize things.

My instinct with your pup lalabug, is that you need to just stabilize....find a bland diet and just focus on not changing anything and getting good probiotics ect in her. Your pup has had a lot of stuff going on (if I have my info right) and maybe just needs some consistency to be able to level off in there. If you are worried about allergies do the ultanimo, its hydrolyzed. Actually I just glanced at the ZD and it looks similar to ultanimo. It can't hurt to give it a month
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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 05:02 PM
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She also might just be a dog that doesn't do well on kibble. My boy didn't tolerate a single kibble. He ate the prescription stuff once, and then wouldn't touch it.

I know it is incredibly expensive, but commercial raw might actually be a good option. Switching Bash onto Stella & Chewy's literally fixed things in a day. I have mixed feelings on the prescription kibble. They are filled with garbage, but they do seem to help some dogs. If it's short term, and it works, maybe it's not the worst thing. I honestly don't even know anymore!

I'm glad she doesn't have EPI or SIBO, but I know how frustrating it is to still not have answers. Hopefully you find answers soon.
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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 06:48 PM Thread Starter
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@Thecowboysgirl she is 4.5 months. She got parvo at around 8 weeks old but did make a full recovery. I have asked that about 3 or 4 times because I kept feeling like maybe the parvo so early on caused some kind of permanent damage to her gut. Two different vets have both told me that simply isn't the case. They are exposed, get sick, recover, and that's it. It could be possible that her immune system hasn't recovered I suppose, though we are leaning more toward diet at this point. I am more worried that this constant recurring diarrhea has her gut so inflamed and screwed up that it will end up causing some type of permanent damage if we can't get it under control. She had some weird tapeworm, dewormer cleared it up. Yes my dog and also @Liffey 's dog are both whites and both with tummy issues currently.

To tell the honest truth regarding SD - everything in my head screams "NO!!!". But... for some dogs it's like boom.... game changer. So idk.

Stabilizing is exactly what I want to do, I just feel like I'm doing a horrible job. @GypsyGhost I agree with you and if we can't get it figured out with kibble or canned, then we are going to look more seriously into the raw options. At this point, I'm willing to try anything. It's just SO frustrating... I've been reading, researching, sending emails, and taking a s**t ton of notes. I literally go into the vet's office with a poop journal and a page of notes every single time so that I won't forget to ask anything and so vet and I can bounce ideas off one another. I'm sure they all think I'm nuts. But I just want my dog to feel good and be well. It makes me want to cry just thinking about it.

Ghost - our first WGSD, parvo survivor, 9/30/16
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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 07:10 PM
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TRUST ME, I get how frustrating it is. After we finally got rid of Bash's giardia, and he STILL had diarrhea all the time, I was pretty defeated. There were tears on my end, for sure. I thought we would never figure it out. We switched him to raw (not commercial at first), and it helped some, but there were still problems. He got really, really sick again after about 7 months on raw, and we were still trying to figure out exactly what he could tolerate. That's when I caved and tried the prescription kibble. It did what it was supposed to do, but seriously, he would not eat it, so what are you going to do? I talked to my vet and we decided to give Stella & Chewy's a go. It pains me to spend that kind of money on food, but he's finally healthy. My vet strongly suspected he has IBD, as well, but we never did the test to confirm after the food fixed him. He's been totally fine for a year now. Just know that there is hope, and it does suck trying to figure out what works, but there has to be SOMETHING.

Another non-kibble food that Bash tolerated on the GI end was The Honest Kitchen Preference Base Mix mixed with raw meat/bone/organ. I was using alpaca, but you could try chicken or beef or whatever you want to start with. Unfortunately, he had a bad skin reaction to THK, so I had to stop it. But he didn't have diarrhea on that at all.
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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 07:38 PM
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If the dog had parvo it might take months to for the villi and mucosal lining to re establish.

You have to provide digestive enzymes , pre bioitics and probiotics and possibly an extra dose of glutamine , an amino acid .

Digestive enzymes aid in the breakdown and absorption of nutrients . Chronic diarrhea is a result fo damaged intestinal cells which when in a normal state would secrete enzymes . This is a supportive plan . You have to give the intestines time to heal.

The dog has had giardia and has been treated for it. That means that both , the problem and the cause , have disrupted a viable , diverse, beneficial gut flora necessary for immune and digestive health.
You have to allow the colonization of a reset good intestinal microbiome. Prebioitis and probiotics.

If it is a particularly difficult case you may want to look in to probiotic suppositories .

I know of "yogurt" probiotic kits which will provide 49 strains of beneficial bacteria -- oral application , and the same
provider has suppositiories as well . You can't buy this yogurt ready made - you have to nuture the culture yourself.

Yogurt in the grocery can be disappointing , having limited , to few, to no , living bacterial cuture.

Probiotics inhibit the reproduction and adhesion of harmful bacteria.

Again you have to allow for time .

L-glutamine , glutamine is an amino acid , normally made by the body. A diet of high protein foods such as meat , fish, dairy , will provide glutamine - however in times of stress the body does not make as much as it needs so falls into a defficient state.

When you have intestinal inflammation, mucosal lining damage , chronic diarrhea , and the healing process where the mucosal lining is in repair , there is an increased need for glutamine. The glutamine is a fuel or energy source which the
mucosal cells need.

Ask your vet about a safe dosage for your pet .
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by lalabug View Post
@Thecowboysgirl she is 4.5 months. She got parvo at around 8 weeks old but did make a full recovery. I have asked that about 3 or 4 times because I kept feeling like maybe the parvo so early on caused some kind of permanent damage to her gut. Two different vets have both told me that simply isn't the case. They are exposed, get sick, recover, and that's it. It could be possible that her immune system hasn't recovered I suppose, though we are leaning more toward diet at this point. I am more worried that this constant recurring diarrhea has her gut so inflamed and screwed up that it will end up causing some type of permanent damage if we can't get it under control. She had some weird tapeworm, dewormer cleared it up. Yes my dog and also @Liffey 's dog are both whites and both with tummy issues currently.

To tell the honest truth regarding SD - everything in my head screams "NO!!!". But... for some dogs it's like boom.... game changer. So idk.

Stabilizing is exactly what I want to do, I just feel like I'm doing a horrible job. @GypsyGhost I agree with you and if we can't get it figured out with kibble or canned, then we are going to look more seriously into the raw options. At this point, I'm willing to try anything. It's just SO frustrating... I've been reading, researching, sending emails, and taking a s**t ton of notes. I literally go into the vet's office with a poop journal and a page of notes every single time so that I won't forget to ask anything and so vet and I can bounce ideas off one another. I'm sure they all think I'm nuts. But I just want my dog to feel good and be well. It makes me want to cry just thinking about it.

Lalabug hang in there and try n ot to worry too much. You are doing everything you can for this pup, these things are so hard to figure out, I should know!

Just try not to worry too much, the pup is still so young and had a terrible disease already, and then had giardia and worms? That's a run of bad luck and I can only imagine she just hasn't had a chance to bounce all the way back.

I don't think the western vets always consider everything that needs to be considered...and commercial pet food is SCARY...but you will get to the bottom of this....I don't think there is any reason to think she will become chronic for life. My girl had a rough stretch and when I got her on the right diet she did not have another symptom for like 8 years!

Hang in there!
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-14-2017, 12:35 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you <3

Ghost - our first WGSD, parvo survivor, 9/30/16
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-14-2017, 12:49 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you @Thecowboysgirl it means more than you know just hearing kind words after days like today where I feel like I am not doing enough or just not getting it right or just missing something. I greatly appreciate it. <3
@carmspack yes yes yes to everything you said - you always word everything so matter-of-factly and the whole issue with her GI tract being screwed since the beginning and never recovering because of the parvo in the first place has been my whole point every time I ask about it. Yet two DVM's tell me that can't be it, or at least if it was still causing her upset shortly after recovery that her system would have gradually healed, unless there was something else stirring the pot like a food sensitivity or a parasite. So I don't really know how to argue it. She never tested positive for giardia but did have a tapeworm which the round of de-wormer cleared up... and even when that was going on NONE of these same recurring symptoms changed(other than the de-wormer affecting her appetite for a day or so). Other than that she's not losing weight and you would think upon meeting her that she looks and acts perfectly healthy. It's literally maddening. Thank you for that info - greatly appreciated. I now have more ammo in my notes!!

Ghost - our first WGSD, parvo survivor, 9/30/16
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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-14-2017, 12:59 AM Thread Starter
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our EPI/SIBO bloodwork results

And @carmspack we do have her on probiotics and I believe our next move is adding in the enzymes. Baby steps. Going to be looking into your other suggestions. Again, thank you. Every time I look into those big brown eyes of hers I know I have to keep trying until we get somewhere. It sounds silly but if you consider role reversal... if I appeared happy and healthy, energetic and playful, but I was having bouts of diarrhea every few days I'd want somebody to help me out too. It is emotionally heart wrenching and frustrating as all ****. But I know I need to just keep sucking it up and trucking along. For Ghost.

Ghost - our first WGSD, parvo survivor, 9/30/16
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