HELP: Die-off OR Something else? nothing stops her itchness! - German Shepherd Dog Forums
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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 08:05 PM Thread Starter
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HELP: Die-off OR Something else? nothing stops her itchness!

Hello to everyone, im having some doubts with yeast overgrow treatment or if it is something else, can anyone help me please?

So a little backround, my female Dashka (16 months) had always been very itchi, a lot! since she got home at age of 2 months we have been thru a lot of different treatments, only succed a couple of weeks with prednisone.. 4 different vets, diet change, very high quality grain free kibble, antibiotics, omegas, etc. and nothing. No mites, fleas, floor chemicals changed, we even change of house, baths, no baths, excersice no excersice.. NOTHING STOPS HER ITCH!

Recently I´ve read some threads about yeast overgrow, learned a lot about yeast, steroids, kibble, coconut oil, apple cider vinager, die-off symptoms and everything fits in except the bad odor (perhaps by her baths) only some not bothering corn chips odor on her paws.

Excesive scratching 24/7, paw licking, red skin, hair loss but not hot spots and yunk.

So 4 weeks ago i started little by little with the coconut virgin oil, external and internal, 2 weeks ago started with raw (only chicken),we didnt had mayor problems, some loose stools with mocus but was expected, antifungal baths, ACV Rinse and probiotics.. everything that some members mentioned in other threads...

So the problem here is that i was expecting an increase of her itchness for some days due to de Die-off Symtoms and it did increase even in places she didnt had before like her face and ears but the thing is that has been some more time that others experimented before looking some improvement and now i am getting really scared with her skin, she has had in the past red skin but now it has started to getting black for the first time, she never before had black skin and now she has, she had loss hair but now she is getting bald in her inner thights with very red, hot skin and getting black more each day.

Is this suposed to happen or is it something else?

Please help, its been a whole year of treatments and different vets without success.

Every vet here only limits to send her antibiotics and prednisone and diagnosing food allergies, one even told me to get rid of her that i would lost a lot of money with her, of course i get rid of the vet not my Dashka.
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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Montiel View Post
So 4 weeks ago i started little by little with the coconut virgin oil, external and internal, 2 weeks ago started with raw (only chicken),we didnt had mayor problems, some loose stools with mocus but was expected, antifungal baths, ACV Rinse and probiotics.. everything that some members mentioned in other threads...
Great items!
You may need to choose a different Probiotic depending on the ingredients. Your shampoo may also need to be changed.


Has your dog been spayed? Black skin and hair loss can be signs of low thyroid. The regular thyroid tests are not always sufficient to detect this.
A specific test done by Hemo Pet would be my choice.
Scroll down to middle of page to see the tests for thyroid that your vet can order from Dr. Dodds at HemoPet: https://labordatenbank.com/cake/hemo...s/hemopet_form


The Dane Lady:
Most veterinarians do not do a complete thyroid panel (5 panel test), nor do they know how to recognize a low normal test. I feel it is of utmost importance that you get a thyroid test analyzed by Dr. Jean Dodds at www.hemopet.com. I feel so strongly about this that I often will not do a consultation until pet owners have this thyroid test done before our consultation. Go to hemopet.com and click on services
You will note Dr. Dodds has 4 sections with instructions and forms for you to print out and take to your vet. Your vet will draw the blood and mail it to her laboratory and she will send you the accurate results. She does a complete Thyroid Antibody Panel which includes T4, Free T4, T3, Free T# and a TGAA (thyroglobulin autoantibody) test.
I really don't recommend going by your vets’ blood test. But if you have already gone to your own vet and they have run a T-3 and T-4 - look at the numbers, if they are in the middle (50%) range, it is considered low for the giant breeds and you must treat with thyroid meds. You must insist on it. In fact, if your dog is a large/giant breed and it comes back in the middle range say 1-10 and it reads a 5 on your dog, it means it needs to be treated with meds. Ideally a large/giant breed needs to be above the 50% range and on small active dogs it needs to be even higher than that - say on 1-10 range it would need to be a 7-8!

From Vet Pet Health: Thyroid hormone is also involved in skin and coat health. Hypothyroid dogs will often lose hair on their bellies, the backs of their legs, and on their sides. They are not itchy, but the hair just doesn't grow properly leading to thin coated or even bald areas. Their skin is often thicker than normal, and sometimes darkened, as a result of the hypothyroidism. These dogs have more problems controlling skin yeast organisms, which are a natural part of a dog's skin flora. They will have more problems with a greasy and often stinky coat/skin, and sometimes will develop full blown skin and ear yeast infections.


Also,
My guess would be any type of CHICKEN or chicken ingredients (eggs, cartilage, fat etc) and a few other things to avoid like grains, flax, yeast supplements, milk products.

I would try a commercially prepared BALANCED food of ONE protein (meat and organs):
Raw Foods:
Bravo (it MUST be the Bravo Balance): Discover Bravo Balance<sup>®</sup> Raw Diet | Frozen Raw Dog Food - Bravo Pet Food
Find a store: Find a Bravo Retailer - Bravo Pet Food

Northwest Naturals: Dog Food ? Northwest Naturals
Find a store: Store Locator ? Northwest Naturals

Primal: Complete Raw Diets for Pets: Canine Beef Formula
Find a store: Primal Pet Foods: Store Locator


Darwins: https://www.darwinspet.com/dog-food/3 selections: Natural Selection Premium Line, Prescription Line, ZooLogics Value Line.
Darwins has Home Delivery!: http://www.darwinspet.com/why-darwin...ivery-program/
https://www.mypetcarnivore.com/index...y_id=1&lang=en


Feeding calculator:
Feeding Calculator ? Northwest Naturals

You may find other commercially prepared brands in your area, but the description MUST SAY: meets the AAFCO standard for complete and balanced nutrition for all life stages.


OR

An "Air Dried Food" Called ZiwiPeak. It is soft small squares and you feed a very small amount.


I have fed raw for many years and decided to feed Ziwi while on vacation and have found it to be a fantastic food!

ZiwiPeak Cuisine (condensed info)
ZiwiPeak pet food is a complete, natural balanced real-meat diet prepared with care in New Zealand. All of our natural ingredients are sourced from the green, free range farms and blue, pristine oceans of New Zealand. The twin stage process eliminates pathogenic bacteria, such as e.coli, salmonella and listeria, while protecting the natural nutrition of our ingredients. As a further safety step, our products are mandatory tested and only released for sale after approval by the New Zealand government's regulatory authorities.
Air-drying is a technique that has been used for centuries to naturally preserve meats. Our modern method stays true to this artisan approach, while eliminating the need for artificial preservatives, salts, sugars or glycerines. Our slow, gentle, twin-stage air-drying process crafts a food that is as nutrient-dense and digestible as a completely raw diet but safe, clean to handle and can store for up to 21 months.

Example:
Beef: A complete, balance diet of ranch raised beef meat and organs, this protein rich meal features delicious red meat and nutrient dense organs. It also includes New Zealand green-lipped mussels, a natural source of chondroitin for joint support, and herbs, vitamins and minerals, making it suitable for all breeds and life stages.

Beef ingredients - Beef Meat (min 58%), Liver, Lung, Tripe (min 32%); Green-lipped Mussel (min 3%); Lecithin; Chicory Inulin; Dried Kelp; Parsley. Naturally preserved with mixed tocopherols; Vitamins: Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Folic Acid, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine Hydrochloride; Chelated Minerals: Iron amino acid complex, Copper amino acid complex, Manganese amino acid complex, Zinc amino acid complex, Selenium Yeast, Potassium Bicarbonate, Calcium Carbonate

An 11 pound bag will last a 70 pound dog approximately 20 days.

Price is $142.00 but if you get it on the "auto shipped" program the price goes down to $128.00 for 11 pounds at Only Natural Pet: ZiwiPeak Daily Cuisine Grain-Free Air-Dried Dog Food
There is a feeding calculator at the bottom of this page; Our Ingredients | ZiwiPeak


Moms

Last edited by Momto2GSDs; 01-30-2017 at 09:03 AM.
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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 10:31 AM
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In addition to Momto2GSDs advice I would also like to stress diet. Depending on where you live the commercially prepared raw may differ. They'd be in the freezer section of the pet store if they even sell it. We've used Primal as a 2nd choice, our dog seems to prefer Nature's Variety. They are expensive, but will be less than the vet bills over time. At our pet store, Primal has a frequent buyer program and if you go in the website for Nature's Variety and sign up, they email you coupons.

We also use a dehydrated raw, The Honest Kitchen. We buy direct from their website and they also have a frequent buyer rewards program. Both of these options have done wonders for our dog with skin and GI issues.
We add Nordic Naturals fish oil to the food, its a great product for both humans and pets.

To clean the skin you might want to look into a liquid soap called Hibiclens. It was recommended to use for my daughter years ago prior to a surgery to clean the skin. You can try a dilute solution and make sure to rinse gently and keep the area dry, use a cool blow dryer if necessary.

Lastly our previous dog had low thyroid, skin issues if we didn't keep her rinsed clean and dry and also black skin areas she had for most of her life. Another sign of low thyroid (besides a blood test) is "rat tail", the dogs lose some hair on their tail and it looks thinner. Our vet missed this for over 6 months. A stranger in the dog park recognized the signs on my dog and told me about the low thyroid.

Last edited by Gretchen; 01-30-2017 at 10:33 AM. Reason: spelling
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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 10:37 AM
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no antibiotics or prednisone for yeast problems.

that will make things worse as the antibioitcs will have a knock down effect on all bacteria , necessary , good , and bad.

restore the gut flora with probiotics -- lactobacillus acidophilus being an important one for fungal control and elimination.

MSM - organic sulfurs should be introduced to the diet.

specific antifungals would be olive leaft powder -- I like Olivus olive leaf extract Olivus Inc. - Healthiest Olive Leaf Source
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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 02-03-2017, 12:59 PM Thread Starter
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Sorry for the delay, ive been having problems with my cellphone..

Thank you everyone for the advise and recommendations..

I will be doing her thyroid test as soon as i found where to do it since i live in Mexico and specialty vets arent many here as some of the products you mention too.

I still do not see any improvement at all, now i have major hairloss, red spots and black skin spots. Like i said before she never had black skin before we start the treatment and her itchiness isnt getting better.

So i still wonder if this new black skin and hair loss is a die off symptom and give her mote time to get over it or should i back down with the treatment or get her on an antifungal med like ketokonazole to help her system.

Thanks gor your advice!
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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 02-03-2017, 01:03 PM Thread Starter
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Pics of her skin
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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 02-03-2017, 01:06 PM Thread Starter
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Dashka on the left, me and Bongo
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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 02-03-2017, 01:19 PM Thread Starter
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Dashka
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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 02-05-2017, 06:51 PM
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Hi I also have a five yr old shepherd with all the same symptoms, have tried numerous things been to the vets numerous times tried all the different drugs antibiotics creams steroids, it all helps for a short period and back it comes. The vet said air Bourne allergies and seborrhea
So more antibiotics which again helped for a short time. So started doing my own research so much reading changed her foods also many times. The last time I went to the vet he gave me this new drug called apoquel which helps with the itch immediately and the stink she was on this for three months. But then she got sick very bad diarrhea so I stopped the apoquel. I think the reason for the diarrhea was due to all the different antibiotics and the apoquel it wrecked her gut. So back to square one, so I decided to go with homemade food and bathing her twice aweek with this new soap bar I have read about one line called dermacton has different oils and herbs and it is helping and also helps with the stink. I am sorry to hear that your dog is going thru the same it is very hard on you and the dog you feel so bad for them and you want to help so much. Hope you get some more answers always keep reading. Don't do the different drugs they have repercussions. Good luck
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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 10:32 PM Thread Starter
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What is MSM?
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