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Back legs movement

11K views 66 replies 14 participants last post by  Henricus 
#1 ·
Hi guys,

I've mentioned this in another (health) thread, but wanted to make a specific one dedicated to this.
My vet asked me to record my pup walking, because she had a suspicion that his short nails might be due to a bad walking manner, which in turn could be due to bad hips. I have zero experience to see if this can be considered normal walking. I will send it to also to my vet, but I am curious what you guys can say about this.

The video is 1:21, with some slow motion shots in between. The shots after the first slow motion (at 0:30) are filmed post intensive fetch. I wanted to see if it made a difference to how he walked. I can't make much out of it, other than he walks like he's trained for the catwalk! :)

https://youtu.be/veVYhAB6oOU
 
#6 ·
He tucks his back legs in under his belly instead of just moving them straight ahead which makes him lean his back end from side to side.How it will affect his joints the vet will have to give a professional opinion.
 
#8 ·
Thanks for the messages. The vet told me yesterday that she answers rather slowly, so I don't know how long I have to wait for it. I called them an hour ago to ask if I should refrain from any type of excercise until I knew what was wrong and the assistant adviced me to not play fetch or anything that makes him go from 0 to 60 in seconds.

I'll do a short jog with him tomorrow Steve, as it is already evening here. It's starting to get dark early.
 
#9 ·
this is a function of this dog's conformation which is ROACH backed .

he has a disruption in his transmission of forward motion.

I too see flat feet

Loose ligaments.

typical "knit and purl" movement

I did a stop of motion with each step. I have to say that this video is excellent production.

When you stop the motion you will see that the dog's right rear does not only go to the center of the body , it angles and steps further to the left of where the left foot has just been . Crosses over . Tripod to support rear.

Dog is very narrow

go back to the vet and look at your existing x ray to review the portion of the spine which shows .
ask about spinal stenosis - common to w German show lines .
 
#10 ·
I haven't made an x-ray yet, but my vet wanted to see a movement video because she thought it might be necessary to make one. She then proceeded to tell I could do an x-ray at her clinic or at a specialist. The difference would be she is cheaper, but the x-ray would be unofficial. I think that means that if he has some sort of problem and she has to send me to a specialist, I would need to make a new x-ray with them.

Anyway, thanks for your message. I will forward all that has been said here to her.
 
#12 ·
She just mentioned it quick and I was trying to manage a very impatient dog. But I just googled it and I found the following: Only veterinarians that have an agreement with the "board of management" (think it's called a "Kennelclub" outside of here. They manage the Dutch pedigrees, dog name registrations, show/sports, etc) can do official HD/ED x-rays. This, I read, because the review commission has high requirements, like being symmetrical and right amount of lightning. Not sure if this all applies to me, as I have no desire to do breeding or shows.

Looks like this is only something for HD/ED.
 
#13 ·
My vet just called (much sooner than I thought) and was quite worried. She said that it didn't look good. It's difficult for her to say what is wrong, but she fears something neurological (maybe a nerve blockage). That suspicion is supported by a small test she did yesterday when she crossed his back legs and he didn't "un-cross" them. Although when she repeated that test on the ground, he did "un-cross" his legs. The other thing she said it could be was a trauma. Madoc jumped from about 5 feet high when he was 3,5months old and landed on crushed shells. I went to the vet when that happened, but other than the broken teeth nothing was found.
She said it would very strange if he had spinal stenosis at such a young age, but it is a possibility. It might also be his hip, she can't be sure until tests are don.

She told me she could do the x-rays, but she thinks its wiser for me to go to a specialist.
 
#24 ·
Here's something to consider Henricus, unfortunately its money. You know his structure isn't great so no matter what exercise or activity he does is going to be tougher for him. Before I went to a specialist I would get xrays and look for any injury or obvious abnormality and if it didn't show anything I'd just live with him in a way that assumes he has everything wrong with his back and hips and start saving up for later on in life when he starts showing obvious pain or enough discomfort that it really affects his quality of life.
 
#17 ·
sorry , I am still looking at spinal stenosis .

The front can't extend because with a roach there is no opening of the shoulder. His back his higher than his head carriage .
His rear , when he takes one step forward , easily seen with the left foot going to center of body, his croup (butt) dips and there is an up and down wobble.

I have to really compliment you with such a good video - great learning tool

Look at it stopping the frames from :08 - you can see both hocks angled inward - the right foot is placed to the right having to take distance to place it into the mid line of body.
At :10 and stop at :11 you can see how the dog is maintaining his upright support . The right rear is behind the left front , and the left rear is behind the right front.
Each step is a criss cross . You see this in the period between :10 and :11 .

(the owner has a very nice gait)

In frames :12 and :13 the left rear has to swing out of the mid line to the outside of the left front - it does not go into the mid line .

========== Freeze the frame at the :18 and you can see how much the right rear crosses well beyond the left rear and almost the position of the left front . You can also see the roach. Very marked peak . Movement must be sore , fatiguing .
Compare frame :18 and frame :41 - you can see the foot twisting to the right . If nails were left to self wear instead of clipping , you would see uneven nail length - more worn / shorter on the outside of the foot .

Frame 42 to 44 you can see the effort the dog takes to move that left foot out of the way of the right . That is the knit and purl . Peak in back clearly seen.



There is a reason Linda Shaw put that book out -- the problems with roach back is not just an aesthetic consideration .
The animal becomes compromised in functional movement.

Is this video real time ? meaning with no breaks for running free or taken in segments after spurts of exercise ?

why? because the dog starts out with good happy energy - give this to the dog ! -- and then by the end of some not even one minute and one half the dog looks drained , moving low and heavy and tongue hanging panting - energy drained like a battery on low.

Conformation matters.

from this forum discussion - short and sweet only 3 pages to see
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru.../652434-3-months-puppy-back-legs-problem.html

the roach has nothing to do with stacking -- it is very evident in motion ,
 
#19 ·
I've just spend 20 minutes writing a response to everybody and I pressed I don't know what on my keyboard and closed safari. Bye bye reply..
And I was soo ready to go to bed, it's far to late here.
@Deb
Yes, she is. She's very down to earth and friendly. The whole clinic is actually. They seem genuinely concerned with the wellbeing of their clients pets and will only ask you to come by if they think it is really necessary. I've had them help me numerous times through the telephone.
I will call the specialist tomorrow morning and see if I can make an appointment.
Thanks.
@Kane's World
That's the "heavy" part, he's still a baby. I could've suspected something sooner. I remember someone commenting about his wobbly back legs when he was about 5 months, but I just thought it was due to him being cow hocked and still needed to develop more muscles.
I will to keep that to minimum. :) Thanks.
@gsdluvr
I read through your thread and want to say I hope your boy is doing alright under current circumstances. Hope the meds are taking his pain away.
My boy hasn't showed much of any discomfort and is quite the energetic dog. I can play an intensive game of fetch with him and he seems fine afterwards. Now that I think about it, he does wobble a bit more when he's very tired after playing fetch, but that might be normal.
Thanks.
@carmspack
I wanted a show line gsd, because I did not believe I could handle the demanding working dog. I do not regret my choice one bit, I love my boy. I remember the first time I noticed how curved his back was and I have no idea why people find that aesthetically pleasing. It is quite the contrary.

It does show a very clear picture of his walking pattern. It's just a cellphone on a tripod. :)

(haha, thank you)

I looked through the seconds you wrote down and the overstep is more than visible. I've always been so focussed on keeping him next to me while walking that I have not payed any attention to how his walking patter was developing. I do not clip his nails however, only have once when he was about 10 weeks old. His front paws also have short nails, but still pointy. His back legs paws have very short ones. The outer two nails are still a bit pointy, but the inner two are very short. This is on both back leg paws (but the right one is a bit worse). Here's a picture of the right paw:
IMG_2585 ? Postimage.org

This was filmed in two parts. Up until 0:30 was before a game of fetch, he was very energetic (we were a few feet away from the playing field). After a short intensive game of about 15 minutes, I recorded the other part. I did this because I wanted to see if there was a different in walking pattern after such an exercise.

I read through the thread you posted. My boy walked in a similar way at that age. It doesn't surprise me one bit that cow hocked is placed that high on that list.

Thanks for all the effort.
 
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#21 ·
The conformation flaws with these problems, can equal "exercise intolerance". In other words, they may have the desire to run etc., but it takes more energy than normal to do it. My dog was very fast when younger as long as he was moving straight. When he did some sheep herding, he was breathing very hard long before other dogs. He was only good for a minute or two of that fast turning etc.
 
#25 ·
I made a new video this morning. It's a bit longer, but it does show everything much better than the first one. I also did a few different things. I walked with him on my left side and on my right side, I jogged on both sides, let him pull and run. I played a game of fetch at the end, which will be his last for the time being. At least up until I know what he has.

Here's the video:
https://youtu.be/hkuhzOi_Zgw

Here are the time codes (it's a bit longer than the previous one, plus this one only has slow motion).

00:00 - 00:26 walking, left side (from sit)
00:27 - 00:49 walking, right side (from sit)
00:50 - 01:06 walking, left side (started behind camera)
01:07 - 01:27 walking, right side (started behind camera)
01:28 - 01:45 jogging, left side
01:45 - 02:02 jogging, right side
02:02 - 02:20 jogging, left side (towards camera)
02:21 - 02:40 pulling on leash
02:41 - 02:55 running towards motionless ball
02:56 - 03:09 running towards ball in motion
03:09 - 03:47 two "long" runs on grass (fetch)
 
#26 ·
@gsdluvr
That's true, didn't think of it. I do not have any comparison of other dogs, so I do not know if he gets tired more quickly than he normally should.

@carmspack
No need to say sorry.
Thanks for both links. The second one was a very interesting read!
The dogs in videos you posted look quite similar to mine.

@Joey-and-chandler
Thanks, I hope so to.
He is only 11 months.

@Steve Strom
Thanks! That's certainly a good idea. I will save as much as possible for the future. Unfortunately money is something I have to worry about. My vet adviced two different clinics to me, one is considered one the best in my country (which shows in their prices), the other is a normal vet clinic with specialists. I had contact with both and talked about the prices and I made an appointment with the second one. Next Tuesday they will do an exam and probably take a few (contrast) photos of his back and legs. I'm a bit worried about the general anesthesia, but I'm going to and forget about it.
 
#27 ·
well I am going to come right out and say it . The conformation embraced and perpetuated by the w german show line breeders has more impact on physical dysfunction than hip dysplasia .

one difference though -- this IS a direct line of inheritance , which is actually CHOSEN

look at Madoc in frames :08 and :09 -- he walks like a comedic parody of a model's super high heels runway walk.
1:05

cowhock 2:265 to 2:27 top of hocks striking each other --- 2:28 that's quite a collision !
frame 2:32 -- dog appears to tire -- he is splaying his front for more support (like a tripod) and the rear is doing the same hock together , feet out - support .

for the person asking about the back - you can see the dog's head down - not parallel to the spine -- and you can see
the back - a point , like a hinge , or some far off mansard roof .

instead of that back allowing him to be held in suspension , he is pushed down and is falling forward

you can not change this as this is his conformation

I would do a diagnostic x ray - see the hips and the spine , see if there is any arthritis -

I would take preventive route , not wait for a condition to start. Anti inflammatory including C and E (real)
-- omega 3, glucosamine, chondroitin , MSM -

again - this is great video footage -- the best -
 
#31 ·
@carmspack
I didn't know that, good to know.

I thought the same when I saw that first shot, really an exaggerated catwalk.
Back when I first learned he was cowhocked I was hoping that would lessen with age, but it doesn't seem like it.

Thank you, I will take that with me to the vet. Although I'm still hoping the x-rays will show that he's perfectly fine but has just watched too much Monty Python..

@Steve Strom
It isn't a typical road to walk on, as I normally walk on pavement. Also this road is private terrain (it's from an equitation center), but I use one of their fields to play fetch as there are no dogs around. So I don't walk a lot there.
The typical Dutch city roads are like this (just googled them, not any particular place):

Inside neighborhoods:
http://www.actiefmetjehond.nl/files/4c_40.jpg

Outside of neighborhoods:
http://www.alblasserdamsnieuws.nl/w...1/11/vondellaan-alblasserdam-gele-strepen.jpg

So normally I only walk on pavement. But as I live on the edge of my town, I prefer walking to nearby small towns, and those roads are narrow with no pavement, just asphalt (though of much higher quality than the one on my video).
 
#33 ·
I think that road is good because it does give the dog traction so that he doesn't wow out more.

go to any dog show or watch the British frog-dog (gsd) video and see the dogs slipping and sliding (ligament damage)

that is why indoor events have mats put down .

henricus quote " Although I'm still hoping the x-rays will show that he's perfectly fine "

that is the heart break of this - he will never be perfectly fine. The absence of hip or elbow dysplasia is not the only consideration for being "perfectly fine".

Something needs to change. The GSD banned from conformation shows in Great Britain because people are speaking out and calling this structure cruel.

Yet at the 2016 SV Sieger show -- there they were -- almost to a one , applauded and revered and $$$ in eyes to make more

It has to stop . It is not acceptable. It can't be.

We could have had changes when Helmut Raiser was the legitimate voted in president of the SV --- and they removed him , replaced with someone who would serve the interests of the huge show faction.

breed in the balance
 
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