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Neurological Disorder?

7K views 37 replies 13 participants last post by  Chandra 
#1 ·
Hello,

We recently visited the vet with Kelso for his annual check up. He's 14 months old.

Vet confirmed our fears - he's too thin, and he's physically very awkward. (The vet had been worried several months ago when he was sick with what she thought was lepto and now she feels convinced that he has a neurological disorder).

Regarding his weight: he weighs about 72 lbs. He tends to have diarrhea frequently. We're feeding him Royal Canin puppy food still. He gets liver treats, beef pizzle sticks and sometimes beef bones. I understand that chicken can be problematic for GSDs so I've stopped any kind of chicken treats. The vet directed us to buy Royal Canin gastro kibble and wet food and give him a combo of that. He turns his nose up at it. However, we've noticed that he is eating more lately (the regular Royal Canin for puppies), but only out of Sherman's bowl (our 12 week GSD). He has had a couple of days of lovely solid poops (hooray!). However, the vet recommends a broad spectrum fecal testing if his diarrhea persists and/or he doesn't gain weight.

Regarding his physique: I wish I could attach a video! We thought the awkwardness would go away as he got older, but it hasn't. He drags his back paws to the extent that we don't have to clip the 2 centre nails as they wear down on their own. Last week they bled after a longer than usual walk (I've attached a couple of pictures). His walking reminds us of frankenstein or a soldier marching with legs out (many of his movements remind us of our Wolfie, who we had to put down a couple of years ago, but he was 12 at the time). His back legs pivot quite a bit. He has a hard time to get up off of the floor, and he doesn't like to "sit", he always goes straight to laying down. He seems to run without a problem. Vet recommends a xray to check for hip displasia but she thinks it is neurological; if that's clear then an MRI to check for EPI.

It feels horrible that our Kelso is not well. Before we do the broad spectrum fecal exam, get xrays or an MRI we're looking for comments / advice here, and then we're going to get a 2nd opinion from another vet.

Thanks in advance for your help.
 

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#2 ·
Diarrhea, could just be the food "Royal Canin" sounds like a "Vet" recommendation. 72 lbs is not underweight. Victory's, Zach's or Kirkland would be better options at the same or lower cost??

Could be "Hip" problems ... "X ray" would determine or it could be "Wobbler's aka Ataxia." Has he always had an odd gait or is this something recent??
 
#3 ·
Chicken can be a problem but it's not the case with all, two of mine with intolerances can have chicken, but not beef.

Do the xrays. Has he been tested for lyme?
 
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#4 ·
Sounds like you're being snookered.
Time for a new vet!!!
Is this a Banfield Vet "franchise"?


Find a vet who focuses on health/nutrition/reality and minimal drugs.
Loose this vet who goes to a text book first to get advice on the next steps to make money
 
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#5 ·
That looks exactly like my dogs back feet. I quit trying to compete in OB because he is so uncoordinated and there are too many sits. And mine can run but not on and on without tiring. They said his hips were very bad, and I believe there is probably something wrong with his back. He has never been able to jump in the car and it is low. He also lies down a lot and has a hard time getting up. He has always been this way. He will be 5 in January.
 
#7 ·
Just some info from someone with two dogs with hip Dysplasia.

Hip Dysplasia strains and affects the whole body. If the hips are bad then the dog is putting weight everywhere else--back, neck, front of body, elbows, etc.

With my first dog with Dysplasia I did swimming only for rehab, worked like a charm--you would never know today he had two surgeries. My GSD was different, she is older, bigger. They told me to see a chiropractor and we did. She was so tight and out of whack that I felt so quilty. There was no doubt that she was in lots of pain, I knew there was some after the surgery, but no where near what it actually was. There was a noticeable difference after the first adjudtmenrs, which I had done with acupuncture. She held the adjustments well and the second session went even better. I can see she is in less pain. The areas affected on her were her back(spine), from lower to neck, front legs.

Get the xrays for the hips, rule that out first. Go to a different vet for those.
 
#14 ·
Wow so much good advice, thank you so much. Not sure if you can copy and paste the link below into you-tube. If you're interested in seeing Kelso move.

https://youtu.be/fN2OzFQgPW8

Still have much to do to work on figuring this out for our Kelso!
Well I'm most certainly "Not" a vet but I can see why the "Vet" said "Neurological" the dog can't seem to "sense" where his limbs are??

I've never see a dog with "Hip" issues but I understand there is "pain involved??" An x-ray of the hips would rule that out ... "Hip Issues" and an X-Ray of the upper vertebrae "could confirm" a constriction on the upper spinal column. An MRI would confirm but my understanding is that there would be "Additional" risk with that with this dog.
 
#10 ·
I couldn't watch the video because my internet isn't cooperating at the moment, but I would say to check the hips. From what I could see I think lack of muscle in hind legs?

Do you give any supplements or do any swimming with him?

Ease go to a different vet that hasn't seen him and don't disclose what your present vet thinks.

Hip Dysplasia is not a death sentence. It can be managed and your pup doesn't seem to let it stop him. He seems to love life and seems so happy.
 
#11 ·
How sad that this puppy is so uncoordinated. One of my friends has a raw feeding business and sees this issue from a certain kennel in your area. She has been trying to help a few owners tweak diet to aid in the dogs development, but it is extremely frustrating. I wonder if your pup is from the same breeder as the dogs she is seeing?
 
#12 · (Edited)
I was wondering about your pup. He looks really happy even with the issues he is having.

New vet and exrays is how I would approach this, along with a better diet, just as others have advised. As I indicated in another post, I'm new to the GSD experience but with your video, the physical seems like the more logical approach.

Just curious if the vet gave a reason why he/she thought it was neurological. What was it about your pup and the exam that made her feel so strongly about it.

Glad you put the video up.
 
#13 ·
What a sweet natured pup, I love how gentle he plays with the little one0:) I'm sorry, I don't have any experience here with similar circumstances, but I might suggest if you have a treadmill therapy location for dogs nearby, you could try that for him. It would build up his muscle mass, low impact, that might help?
 
#15 ·
When the pup runs, he puts both back legs together, and I think he may be compensating for pain in his hips. The pup is happy and good natured. The thing is to get in there and do some x-rays. Your pup may have something neurological going on. He may not. He may have hip dysplasia, he may not. He may be very angulated and awkward, and it may be others stuff and possibly a combination.

HD is not a death sentence. If he does have it, he probably will need surgery, maybe on both hips, because he is not a-symptomatic and he is young.

Good luck with him.
 
#16 ·
After seeing the video, I think he will improve as he ages. The way he swings his rear around reminds me of my dog. Even though my dog has similar problems, it looked way worse at 1.5 years than it does now. As he grew, and muscles developed, which really helped a lot. Your boy is very young and has much growing to do.

I'm sure his growth plates are still open. It just seems to take some of them longer to come together, especially the males.
 
#20 ·
The vet should be checking for parasites and if she expects hooks to treat for them. I think it is hooks that only shed eggs occasionally, so they will not be found in a stool sample, and you can have some false negative. Raw feeding will not make parasites worse. If you are not careful, you might introduce parasites, I suppose. There are ways to feed RAW safely.

If your dog has EPI, raw feeding is not going to help him, and can make things worse. EPI is determined by a blood test taken after the dog has fasted for at least 12 hours.

If you are concerned with his weight, and he is uncoordinated, you should get x-rays of the back, hips; do a fecal test for parasites; do blood tests for EPI/SIBO, full blood panel, and I would do a test for lymes and a tick panel. Let's get it figured out.

That beings said, GSDs are often skinny when young, and uncoordinated. If he does have hip problems, being kept lean, and doing regular, moderate exercise will help him.
 
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#21 ·
I know of somebody that had a fast growing pup like this and the pup had similar problems with his rear legs. The vet decided to just run him through a course of anti inflammatories and the dog responded remarkably well to the point of weaning him off the drugs with marked improvement. I would try this at the very least although I still think xrays and further testing is in order.
 
#22 ·
I was going to answer and then had to put it aside so that I could cool down.
Yes. That bad.

This has been my year for taking aim at breeders who will breed without concern for what they are producing.
Who may have no idea , not one clue as to how a good DOG , never mind a GSD , ought to be built to be a
functioning animal .
Definitely should be reading Linda Shaw's book .

The problems stem from the dog's conformation . One side shot made me think of a giraffe. Take away the head , start at the withers , stop at the base of the tail and you have this exaggerated wedge of a top line.
I am not talking about the neck , only making a comparison to the trunk.

The front legs swing forward as if he were on stilts. You describe the walk "frankenstein".

Look at the video and stop at .15 - .16 mark . Look what he has to do with his front legs in order to pick up the
ball. He has to plant his legs apart like an upside down V --

Look at video at the .54 mark. Paces like a giraffe . You can see that there is no propulsion from the rear and that front leg .54 to .56 takes a lot of effort to move it out .
In the rear the dog is cow hocked . Lacks strong ligaments .
In frame 1:30 you can see , flat withers and short neck . In that trotting motion the head should not be upright.

The poor dog is uncoordinated because of the bits and pieces of his body that don't fit together well to allow for harmony and efficiency in his movement.

I don't think there is an expectation that the dog will fill out .

I would consider a neurological test for DM --- simple kit can be had from https://vetdnacenter.com/dna-tests/...se-screening/degenerative-myelopathy-dm-test/


onyx asked "How sad that this puppy is so uncoordinated. One of my friends has a raw feeding business and sees this issue from a certain kennel in your area. She has been trying to help a few owners tweak diet to aid in the dogs development, but it is extremely frustrating. I wonder if your pup is from the same breeder as the dogs she is seeing?"

I know the dogs and I wonder also.
See your breeder -- the "other" dogs will probably be closely related , sharing the same genetics .

This baffles me " raw food diet for him but the vet discouraged it because he's so thin. She felt concerned that if he does have a parasite, the raw food diet would make it worse"

A thin dog needs good clean protein to build muscle , not junk filler that is difficult to digest and at the end of the day anti-nutritive.
If the dog has a parasite then deal with it !!!! Remove . Don't let the entire digestive system get compromised with damaged mucosal lining leading to leaky gut , allergies, chronic problems , because there is some disruptive , parasite exploiting what ever resources the dog has and needs for itself.

grrr.
 
#24 · (Edited)
the problem is in the front , not so much the rear .

I see that the second pup is from the same breeder?
Same lines?

how does this dog negotiate going up stairs?
can you do a video on that .

when the dog is moving in the videos I don't see him scruffing the ground which would cause
that abnormal wearing down of the two inside toes of the hind feet .

he does put so much energy throwing out those front legs .

for a limited time period stop trimming the toe nails .

Let's see what happens to those shorter nails .

Would they be frayed and shaggy if you didn't trim them.

By trimming them you are driving back the quick.

It would be interesting to see how healthy that quick is , whether there is a fungal or auto immune problem going on .
 
#25 ·
@Chandra most mainstream vets are not big on raw feeding. Doesn't mean it's bad for your dog. But you do have to know what you are doing before you jump in (much info here on the forum for your reading). I actually have two vets. One is good with raw feeding and titers instead of vaccines. The other is not but gives great care for illness/injury and I trust their quality of care. All vets are not created equal.

From your portrayal of your vet, if it were me, I'd be finding a new one. Your pup was sick months ago with "what she thought was lepto" There are blood tests to confirm lepto. Lepto needs to be diagnosed and treated. NOT guessed at. Your vet suspects intestinal parasites but hasn't done a fecal yet??? I do agree that hip and elbow x-rays should be done to rule out HD or other abnormalities. Yes get a second opinion.
 
#26 ·
I looked again, and yes a lot of stiffness and walking across its body in the front (not sure how else to phrase that), but a lot of weakness in the back. I am not an expert, but I am seeing both back legs going together, and I think the dog might be compensating.

I have seen some awkward show-line puppies that seem to be really loosey goosey at stages.

DM testing -- the DNA test to see if the dog is clear/carrier/affected. The more you know before going to the vet the better.
 
#28 ·
if you do the test , a wise thing since there are problems presenting themselves, then you can take a course of action which will delay the onset if not reduce the severity or DM . This does not change the genetics of the dog.
Essential fatty acids , Vitamin B's , Vitamin E - neuroprotective , anti-inflammatory.
Better quality food then what the Vet suggested.
 
#29 ·
conformation is factor one.

diet and past health history has to be looked at.

dogs that lack co-ordination may have a dietary insufficiency -- magnesium comes to mind - misfiring of signals

has the vet done blood work on the dog to determine the electrolyte levels ?
get a blood test done for magnesium, potassium, calcium and sodium.

in the meantime you can give your dog a very ripe mashed banana with some ground pumpkin seeds which would satisfy magnesium and zinc -- and a few ounces of liver to cover the B6 needs

If the dog had lepto then there would have been some kidney problem.

You need to ask the vet how his past problem is impacting his health now - still.

neutering ? not much you can do there - but when done at a young , still formative growth period there will be physical repercussions -

not to criticize you on what was done , but to give you information so that you can think about , make decisions for the other pup that has joined your household
https://www.ucdavis.edu/news/early-neutering-poses-health-risks-german-shepherd-dogs-study-finds/

someone else may be able to find the reports on changes of length in the long bones

out of curiousity can you do a little video of your youngest pup ?

I will also say that your dog seems to have a bright happy disposition
 
#30 ·
"• Bitches spayed at 7 weeks had significantly delayed closure of growth plates as compared to those spayed at
7 months, and those spayed at 7 months had significantly delayed closure of growth plates as compared to
those left intact.(1) In a study of 1444 Golden Retrievers, bitches and dogs spayed or neutered at less than a
year of age were significantly taller than those spayed or neutered after a year of age.(2)

• In a study of 203 agility dogs, the author demonstrated that the tibia and radius and ulna were significantly
longer than the femur and humerus, respectively, in dogs that were spayed or neutered at or prior to 8 months
of age as compared to intact dogs.(M.C. Zink, unpublished data)"

http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf
 
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